Any Pontiac Guru's able to help with a starter problem? I've inherited a 63 Grand Prix with 421 HO 3x2, vehicle was completely rebuilt and restored in '96, maybe 10k miles since. It was not running when I got it, I believe A/C was being worked on (new compressor is on but not hooked up yet). Anyway, Trying to get it started, turns over extremely slow. fried battery. replaced battery, same, pulled starter, solenoid broken, replaced solenoid, starter still slow, pulled apart, armature worn out, replaced starter, same, broke solenoid again, melted wires, etc. after 3 starters, 2 solenoids, and 2 batteries, I realize the posts are shorting out on the exhaust manifold. What is the solution? there is almost no clearance, the motor terminal on the starter housing is touching the manifold, when starting it shorts out and doesn't get full power to the motor. So, what starter do I need exactly? Parts stores keep selling generic rebuilds supposed to be univeral I guess, but this is a rare combo, long branch manifolds, starter mounts to bellhousing (4spd). I googled and heard mention of an upsidedown starter? is this what I need? or is there a shorter body motor and shorter solenoid I should use? Any help would be appreciated, need to sell this to settle estate.
I don't think so, the terminals coming out of the motor wouldn't fit. I think the "I" and "S" terminals could be shaved though.
I believe that Pontiac had what was refered to as an upside down starter on H.O. engines of that era. The solenoid was on the bottom! Good Luck KK
well with that said,could he rotate the housing & put the solenoid down?it's been a while since i looked at a GM starter {can't remember the housing bolt pattern for em}
I don't think it can be rotated, the nose wouldn't face the ring gear, only open 180 deg. Isn't there a shorter solenoid available, or has every GM solenoid been phased out into one universal design?
I had a similar problem when I bought my 63 GP with a 421HO back in 2000 that use to burn up starter solenoids. First of all, does your starter mount to the block or the bell housing? '63 was the transition year and a lot of the 421 blocks have the starter mounting pad drilled and tapped. I actually think I replaced my starter with a '64 block mounted starter and that fixed my problem. OK, now here's where my memory gets a little fuzzy, hopefully someone else can back me up here. If I remember correctly, the starter for the Oldsmobile and Pontiac were interchangeable by switching the flange that bolts up to the bell housing. Now the starter I'm referring too was the ones used on a dual starter pocket bell housing. It had a three part housing: the armature can, solenoid action with solenoid, and the bell house mounting flange. There's only two holes going threw the solenoid action and you can drill new holes and rotate the solenoid as much as 30 degrees in either direction, or you can rotate the solenoid and action 180 degrees so it's facing down between the block and starter. But use a heat shield and leave a screw driver in the car in case you have to jump the starter solenoid. I really wish I had a picture of this starter to show you. Come to think about it, try an Oldsmobile starter for the same year car if your starter pad isn't drilled and tapped, that should clock the solenoid 180 degrees without tearing the starter apart. Good Luck to you and let us know how it works out.
When racing and changing engines a lot, I made my own upside down starter. I simply took standard starter with aluminum nose and cut it clean off right in front of the two mounting bolts. Then turn it 180 degrees and had it welded back together. Solenoid is now at the bottom where its easy to hook up. I scribed a line all the way around and cut it with a hack saw, pretty easy deal to do! Joe
Pontiac had a standard and heavy duty starter in the 60's. The heavy duty one is a bit longer and has a copper spacer between the solenoid and the terminal coming out of the starter case that screws to the solenoid. It is possible you have the wrong exhaust manifold on the engine. In the late 60's and early 70's I worked on lots of 389 & 421 Pontiac's and never had a problem with starters grounding out on the exhaust manifolds. You either have the wrong starter or the wrong exhaust manifold on the car.
I still haven't heard if his block's drilled for the later starter. Or if it's 3 bolted to the bellhousing
64 has block ready to drill for starter 63 not .my 62 starter i had to grind off for clerence terminal and manifold have not seen ministarters for 61-64 engine,
1962 and 1963 421 HO and Super Duty engines had upside down starters to clear the special exhaust manifolds. You need one of those starter housings or use the mini starter.
I had a similar problem with a '63 421. After much head scratching I cut the (cast iron) nose of the starter off in a lathe and brazed it back on with the solinoid pointing away from the exhaust; about 30 degrees rotation. The issues that resulted were that the starter nose was now a little thinner and that caused the starter clutch to hit the flywheel eventually cutting the clutch open and dumping all the little springs and rollers out. The starter didn't work too well after that. I had to put a spacer on the rotor to keep it away from the flywheel. The other issue was my fault by not getting the nose lined up straight when it was brazed back on. That made the rotor bind and made the starter crank the engine slowly. When I eventually figured out the problem I put the starter (less the rotor) in the lathe and drilled new bushing bores that were in line with each other and the housing. When I got the 421 engine I didn't realize that there were different starter mouting options between '63 and '64. Imagine my shock after putting the '63 421 in front of a later TH400, installing it in the car and discovering that there was no place to bolt the starter. It was a fun night. That little problem resulted in making an adapter plate to mate a Pontiac engine to a Pontiac transmission. The adaptor plate is 1/4" steel and is drilled for the starter; like the earlier bell housings. So that's my Pontiac starter story. the 421 tri power has been a lot of fun and is currently awaiting installation in the next project. I hope that you get yours sorted out without all of "fun"!
Hey,try contacting Less at Pontiacparadise.com,He's into the early 60 pontiacs.He was very helpful with my 64 421 catalina
61-64 full size pontiacs bellhousing mount starters kick the standard solenoid out a little towards the long branch manifold Is it possible that a 65-69 ( small pic) set of longbranches were installed, they look similar but will cause the problem described. The easiest solution is a mini starter, Nunzi sells them, also here's a link on ebay for one we put on my buddies 62 Grand Prix with the later manifolds, http://www.ebay.com/itm/61-64-Ponti...Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item1c2502d58e
This is my guess. My '61 Bonneville has the long branch manifolds and the long nose starter, and they don't touch. If the later long branch manifolds were installed at some point they may interfere. The mini starter is probably the simplest solution, and it will turn the engine over better when hot (that can be a problem with long branch manifolds, as they are very close to the starter body.)
Wow, after I took the aftenoon off yesterday to work on it, I see tons of more replys, thanks all! Here's the scoop: Don't know if the manifolds are correct or not as my uncle passed away and don't know exactly what he did. He had a spare starter, but that doesn't work, I found out it just spins because the rebuilder used the wrong bendix and it doesn't kick out far enough. The nosecones are cast iron, I thought about cutting it and flipping upside down, but decided against it. What I did was combine parts of 2 starters to get the copper motor terminal from one, the correct armature and bendix from another, and modified it so it doesn't use a spacer on the solenoid, bent it down and over to screw direct. next, I ground off the R terminal, and cut down the S terminal so it barely fits the nut. The manifold has grind marks around the + terminal and S terminal already so they may very well be the wrong later manifolds. I ground a bit more and lo and behold after 6 years of storage, got the beast started. Some other facts I found out, GM used the same 10MT starter from 56 through the 90's on ALL high torque engine applications, BB, SB, P, O,B, Cad, etc. you can swap nosecones from any 10MT starter moter, as long as you have the correct bendix. This from a local old guy who has a little electric repair shop. Also, there were different versions of solenoid length, but all the major parts suppliers substitute one solenoid as universal, I guess the oddballs like us have to just make due. The block is not drilled for later starter, the starter mounts to the bellhousing, I believe 64 was the transition year. Since I got it working finally, I am leaving it the way it is. If I were keeping it, I think the best solution is a mini-high torque job for $200, but since I have to sell it to settle the estate, I will let the next guy decide how he wants to handle it. No way would I leave it like this for myself, so little clearance it is scary. Thanks again for all the replys, this forum is great! I sure learned more than I ever thought there was to know about Delco starters...
Next question for you guys in the know, now that it runs, the tach is not working, nor is the vacuum guage. He has new MSD ignition box, I assume the tac just wires to that? It is factory Pontiac mounted on left of dash, the vacuum guage is on the floor shifter console, I assume just connects to a vacuum port on the manifold?
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