Technical Has anyone ever had this Hemi issue?

I have nothing agaimst Bob or the H/H company as a rule, but I too question the " white box ' lifters. Hydraulic lifters are one of those complex, yet simple componants of any engine street race or otherwise. That said, they are parts to never be skimped on regarding quality, never.
If I may suggest going with a known and USA brand name lifter, such as the Comp cams part. Yes there are people here who have nothing but bad luck with Comp. There are complaints about EVERY known cam manufacturer if you talk to enough people, that's a given.
When you get the new and USA lifters, do a little comparision test, and see the way the plunger reacts to downward pressure while dry and then after you sit a pair in some oil for a few hours. I'm sure the forum would like to hear the results of that. Please use a pushrod and not a screwdriver for the test, LOL.
I also agree to not run that conversion oil pump, stick to a quality rebuild and if possible blueprinted/rebuilt stock original HEMI pump. Thank you, TR

 

Just as habit, I would do this while priming and checking. Spin oil pump for a slow 10 count, roatate 90* and spin again for a slow 10 count and repete until two complete C/S revolutions, TR

 

Big misconception and problem with the dreaded misuse and abuse of the " High Volume " oil pump. If measures have not been made to get this " high volume " of oil back into the pan, the problem worsens, not gets better. I have spent decades literally on performance and H.P. gains just from the oiling system of a engine. Yes POWER derived from getting oil thru a engine, the dyno doesn't lie. Think about it, I talk about it all the time. Said engine is designed to " drain back ' X amount of oil through passages in the block and cylinder heads. Now you increase the volume substantially of oil that has gone to the top of the engine, what was done to get that extra volume of oil back to the pan to pass thru again........................................usually nothing.
Those oil pumps are 90+ % of the time used strictly as a " INSURANCE POLICY " for mass produced crate engines.
I hope that helps, I'm not harping, I'm really hoping to shed some light thank you, TR

 

Each bank has its own oil passage. When the cam lines up with one hole that bank gets a shot of oil. The cam moves on eventually lining up with the other hole giving its bank a shot. Oiling should be same for each bank. To prime your rockers you have one person running the drill & another slowly turning the crank with a ratchet(or whatever). When you like up with one of the holes you'll hear a diffrence. run there for a while before moving on to the other hole.

 

QUOTE=patrick2965;7438585]Quick thought.
Does crankshaft position affect oiling in a stationary priming observation? Does rotating the crank make a difference to which side oils better? Seems like it does in some engines.[/QUOTE]

Yes, camshaft directs oil to the top. The oil alternates between sides.
The EarlyHemi engine is very decieving to most noephytes. It simply does not flood the top with oil as do many brand 'x' engines.

No such thing these days, but the Melling M50 can be used on virtually all 51-58 Hemi/Poly engines, some require a slight bit of work. Check the Hemi Tech Oiling section for details.
The Melling M50 flows nearly the same volume as the HV72 so there is NO advantage in buying all of that adapter stuff....

.

 

Thanks 73RR, I thought about that later today. I know it sounds like go to the Chrysler dealer and get a new pump LOL, not what I mean though. Thanks for catching that, I meant blueprint/rebuild a good original HEMI pump if possible before jumping on that conversion bandwagon. The Melling pump I'm very familiar with, they are certainly top of the food chain. Regardless of who made it, I wouldn't ever install a oil pump without going thru it with a fine toothe comb, TR

 

I had a similar problem once on a O/T engine. Turned out to be a tiny leak sucking air in the pick up tube. The oil was aireateing slightly and causeing lifter noise at idle. Just a thought.

 

It'd be..get a new hemi pump from Melling or an unaltered LA one from Mopar or another parts source. As far as rebuilt my understanding is they just replace the moving parts but they don't/can't fix erosion of the pump body that reduces the flow by up to 25% before the body erosion is considered too severe for rebuilding.

 

Yes George, only a good body, no erosion, no pitting and definately no score marks for the rebuild. Thats part of what I mean when I say blueprint the pump. Besides the internal surfaces of the body, then measuring all of the clearances. You might need to touch up the surfaces on a surface plate, do some nice dremel work internally etc. Always with a good body for a foundation and starting point. I then DYNO my oil pumps with fixtures I have made before putting them into service. TR

 

i am in the process of building my 354, and i received a white box lifters with the part number 21062 and hot heads sticker and also say's 5/16 push rods, is this one of the lifter you's mentioned or a 4th different lifter? i will also be watching this post closely

 

Thanks again for all your input fellas. As i bumped the engine over while turning the pump with a drill i did not see any change in the amounts of oil on each bank. The strange thing is that the noisy side seemed to be the side getting the most oil. Could the cam bearings be in wrong? The passenger bank was getting more oil than the drivers bank. I guess i should have asked if the pressure and volume to both banks is equal when the engine is running. I mean I would guess that the entire engine is under the same amount of pressure when in opperation. Thus equally distributing the oil pressure to each bank and eventually each lifter. Or am I mixed up?

 

Bump for the Noon dudes.

 

If the cam bearings were in wrong you'd get no oil up top or only to one bank. New Shafts? If not new maybe the one is getting more oil & making noise because it's got a little more wear? everything should be equal if all passages are equally open & crap free.

 

Early hemi the oil goes from filter to the rear main and the right lifter gallery, the other mains feed from that gallery the left gallery gets it's oil from the front main. Cam bearings are fed from the main bearing below them.

 

Ok guys. So I installed the new Comp lifter set and set the lifter preload at .050. I lit it off, broke in the cam again and I am still hearing this tick. I ripped the rocker covers off and ran the engine. The problematic lifter seems to be the number 8 exhaust. This was the same lifter that was most commonly noisy the first go around. I thought that I may have mis-adjusted it but I readjusted, ran, same deal.
So now im at a crossroads. I am convinced that their is a blockage or something somewhere in the engine that will probably require a full tear down, rebuild ect. So here is a solution that I want to go with and wanted to see what you guys think. If I were to go solid lifter, there would be ample oil to the lifters to keep them lubed. I have dealt with solid cams in my race cars (I dint mind adjusting them) and think that this would be a good solution to the issue. I believe that the gring that is in it is a bit mild anyway so its kind of a win win in my opinion. What do you think? Also I talked to Bob walker at Hot Heads about a solid grind but I had another question. Would a .480 lift solid cam have enough valve to piston clearance with enough taken off the block and heads to square them up (at most .005) and stock pistons? I know it may be hard to answer but I gotta ask.

Thanks again,
A frustrated Hackman haha

 

I would pull the spring on the valve making the noise and check the guide. Also make sure you have clearance between the retainer and top of the guide. Did you replace the cam and lifters, or just the lifters? Sounds like you've driven the car. If you had a valve hitting the piston at idle, it would have gotten ugly with more rpms.

 

Its an obvious lifter bleed down problem. I replaced only the lifters. The engine still only make noise when the oil thins out. The bleed down of the lifter is too rapid for the oil to keep up with is what im thiking. I had the seats cut for the springs as required for the application. It will tick at idle or reving. The headers are open so its less audible at rev but its there. So im over chasing the problem and want to ditch the hyd cam all together. I guess my real questoin is about the solid cam.

 

I would think a .480 lift solid cam should clear. The net lift will be minus the lash anyway. Its a longshot but you might even be able to use a bore camera thru the plug hole to see the clearance.

I also have to wonder if the lifter bore is worn more than the others causing your original problem.

 

You might check lifter to bore clearence on the lifter

 

i had a problem similar to this on a 350 chevy. the problem was a cam and lifter eating itself up. the cam lobe was wearing off creating increased noise. it may be a long shot in your situation but it happened to me.

 

The lifter bores were checked and the clearances were good or within factory specs. The only thing I can come up with is a bockage. The only definate solution is a solid cam. The lifters will not be an issue anymore. And with a solid cam, your net lift is what it is. There is no real variable as with a hyd lifter other than your lash. Do you guys think this is a good solution? Any hemi guys think the .480 is within reason? Thanks for the imput guys.

 

I finely found the spec. on lifter to bore clearence .0005-.0015 number 8 ex. would be the first lifter to get oil.

 

Most all solid lifter cams are advertised with gross lift (lobe lift x rocker ratio). The actual lift at the valve is the gross lift minus the lash. Example (.480 minus .016 lash = .464 lift at the valve). Since hydraulics are designed to operate at zero lash, the advertised lift is the actual lift at the valve. All other factors being equal a .480 lift hydraulic cam will have more lift at the valve than a .480 lift solid because you do not have to subtract the lash.

The only real way that you can tell piston to valve clearance is to pull a head and clay it up. There are too many variables besides lift, duration, lobe centers, and cam timing greatly effect piston to valve clearance as well.

The solid cam would probably solve your problem, at least for a little while. But I would still be concerned as to what the real problem was to begin with.


Good luck with it.

 

Springs seats in the head can be widend, but shouldn't be cut deeper, a bit thin there. If you think the oil passages have blockages you probably should take the engine apart & solve that problem before something gets torn up big time.

 

Thanks for the imput guys. George the seats were widened for the springs and yes you are right that it in affect is a bandaid to the problem. But all of the lifters are getting a lot of oil to them. When i was running the pump with a drill I was able to see the amounts of oil to each lifter bore. The odd thing is that the #8 bore and that entire bank was getting the most oil. I mean if i twisted the drill up it would shoot to the damn roof! I am truely baffled. I spoke to my engine machinist and he actually suggested the solid cam. He had also said you could tear it down and try to clear all the passages, reassemble the entire engine and take a chance at not solving the problem. So I guess I'm up in the air right now. But I will say one thing, Im over chasing this issue and if a solid would in affect "solve the proble", I think its worth a shot.

Thanks again guys. I really appreciate it.

Brody

 

If the same apparent problem still exists with new lifters then I would be looking at something besides the lifters.
The "seems to be" part says that you are still unsure so there is no guarantee that after changing cam and lifters the same problem will not still be there.

I'd be doing a teardown and through inspection.

.

 

73RR,
Your are absolutely right. I guess I dont know what else to look at. Any ideas? My rookie ass is stumped.

 

Without thinking i put 15-40w oil in my 354 hemi a few years ago, after a while of running it, it started ticking quite loudly.

I asked on the hothead forum and i felt pretty silly as the oil i put in was too thin. As soon as i stuck 20-50w back in it, it was smooth and quite once again, panic over.

Good luck !

 

Paul,
I understand the silly feeling. haha. She has 20-50 in it right now. Still having the same issue. Maybe a straight weight could help. Thanks for the imput!

 

Brody, whatever you got going on is a head scratcher for sure. My concern is that it could transform itself into something serious if not reconciled. As we all know, these things are not cheap to fix when there is actual damage. At this point your only looking at a gasket set and lots of time, and maybe a set of cam bearing if you really go all out and re-tank the block.

Also, curious about an earlier comments, "if i twisted the drill up it would shoot to the damn roof". Can you elaborate on the exact conditions at that time? Typically, the top end just doesn't see that much oil.

Gary