Anyone attemptin a Truly Period PERFECT Build?

You ain't kidding.

 

not totally 1940's , but my effort at a 1940's hot rod .... steve

 

I am extremely interested in hearing whether people are trying to do it this way. Even though MIG and TIG were available, they were mainly industrial only machines at the time. The first personal/portable MIG was offered in '73 and TIG machines gleaned consumer popularity even later, so average joes and most shops were using stick and gas. Grinders were available, but were talking big ol' 9" suckers usually used to strip paint, prep metal for welding and dress welds. I know electric and air reciprocating saws were available as well, and were used in shops, but not much by the home builder.

Back to what the OP is getting at. To build a car this way these days, chassis should be welded with either stick or gas/brazed. Seems that most brackets, mounts and tabs would be bolted to the frame, especially on a homebuilt car.

Most cuts would be made with a torch. Pieces for brackets, notches and holes in frames, areas in bodies to be modified. Cutoff wheels on air grinders acceptable as well as handheld jig-saws. I would even say recip saw, if you have a shop (business).

Large grinders and small air grinders with backing pads and abrasive discs are okay, but used more so by shops than the homebuilder. some of the more serious builders not employed in a shop would have these too.

Plastic filler was available in '53, but not widely used 'til later. lead is more appropriate. Lacquer paints and non HVLP siphon guns are still available and many cars were brush painted by the homebuilder.

And remember, even the pros left behind crude details, especially in those areas you couldn't see. I have seen and dealt with many OLD customs over the years and even had the opportunity to pore over one of Sam Barris' cars years ago. It was a crusty unrestored survivor with over a half inch of lead in spots among other crude details. It would put things in perspective to a lot of guys to see these cars and that they aren't as perfect as you think.

It intrigues me that there is so much interest in this now. Most people (especially customers) seem to think that MIG and TIG are the only correct welding processes and don't want their car in the same room as a stick welder or ox/acet setup, as if that stuff is so wrong! It blows me away how many funny looks I get because I dont own a plasma cutter and don't prefer to cut with one!

 

Just an observation, but this thread reminds me of a trend that was spotted in the restorer circles, not long ago. Restoring cars got to where the cars were done TOO well. Guys were duplicating factory over spray and chaulk marks on frames. They were over done and nothing was gained except boosted egos. Being period could end up that way. Does it end when someone needs a 50's air machine to fill his tires? Is it possible to be TOO period? You can use old tools, but the way you use them is the result of modern knowledge. Would you cut the same corners that builders did 50 years ago?

 

I'm working on my car as I can afford it. It's my first project and at 59 years old it has been a lot of fun since my grandson likes to help. He's learning to weld and the basics of engines. After my job went to China, things have slowed down to a slow crawl. I go to car shows to get ideas more than to just look. I always see more people hovering over the rat-rod type cars than those that look as though they were built by Chip Foose or Boyd Codington. And sometimes those cars were built by someone other than the owner. Those cars seem to perfect in every detail. You can look but don't touch. Perfection can mean different things to different people. My Valiant won't be one of those although I'll try to get it perfect. For me being perfect will mean being sure the car is safe since my grandson will probably end up owning it someday. My skills being what they are, it will probably look more like a rat rod than a show stopper, but who cares as long as it's safe. That's my idea of perfection. Bill

 

i think you can take this period correct thing just a tad to far.why in the hell should i use dated tools for a job that i can get done a little easier and a hell of alot quicker.dont like stick welding. mine looks like turkey shit. always has. my mig looks alot better. and a plasma cutter gets the job done alot quicker and cleaner.when i do a build i want to get done with it so i can drive it. not spend alot of time cleaning up welds and cuts. why not do a really clean weld to begin with and a nice clean cut. i wouldnt want to build a house just using tools that were available 75 yrs ago. got any idea how long it would take to make all your cuts with a handsaw.same reasoning when i build a car.im not looking for any kind of mystic experence when im building a car. i just want a cool product.thats me anyway.its different for others im sure.i was talking to a guy in town awhile back. hes a old guy, almost 100.yrs old.still has a model a. he bought it almost new. the door gaps are way off. i just mentioned id be glad to make that right for him. he laughed at me. said if it was ok by henry its ok with him. said most werent even close when they were new.i dont know, i wasnt there,but he was so i believed him. still do.he said these old cars were thrown together at a factory that didnt use measuring tools on the line they just eyeballed it and alot of them ol boys needed classes.do we really take things to far.i think so sometimes.i know i do.

 

Disclaimer: Do not take offense. This is just an exageration of observations overall in this thread. Ment to be taken tongue in cheek.

It's been interesting, so far. From what I gather I must have grown up on the dark side of the moon. I was 13 in 1970. My uncle was an avid car guy, he worked as a mechanic and bodyman. In 1975 he had a better than most garage at the house. Besides the normal hand tools he had a cutting torch, a sears welder AC stick. Actually the best sears ever sold with their name on it. He had a small belt driven compressor, 2 siphon paint guns. A good one for color and a cheap sears for primer. He had a big hand held body grinder, 9", weighed about 900 lbs, and spun at a whopping 1500 rpm's. I'm not even sure he had a drill press. Evidently the average car guys had all this and more over a decade earlier.

My conclusion thus far. I can't be done. You can't build a car without a MIG welder, cutoff wheels, and the internet. Aparently every car built before 1975 was a cobbed together p.o.s., unsafe at any speed and would get you and everyone else in the near vicinity killed. So what have we learned?

1) All welds done with a stick machine look like bubble gum and are extreamly dangerous. NEVER Turst your Life on ANTHING done with a stick welder.
2) Metal CANNOT be Cut without the use of a Plazma Machine or bare minium a high speed angle grinder with a .045" cutoff wheel. It Just CAN"T be Done.
3) Generators DON'T WORK, they never charged a battery, it was only by the grace of God that batteries stayed charged before the Alternator.
4) Drum brakes are UNSAFE and will not, nor did they ever stop a car. If it doesn't have at least front wheel disc brakes keep it off the road and away from my kids.
5) Every car guy in 1963 had a buddy that worked in a body shop, another that worked in a machine shop, and a third that worked for NASA. So they had access to all of the most state of the art and top secret tools to create perfect one of a kind parts for his car.

 

Last week I asked for old pics of 32 engine compartments to copy the style of wiring and the bends on the steel lines for brake/clutch master cylinders on the firewall ...

I don't think it's possible to do the lines like most were done; they must have bent lines over their knee or by hand...and if you did that today, people would think you are a hack?

I just did mine with benders and it honestly looks so wrong, just like a street rod or a muscle car restoration.

 

My conclusion so far is that you have a chip on your shoulder about this for some reason. So people don't want to stick weld, so what. So people want to use the tools they have at their disposal now, big deal. Get over it already, it doesn't make the car any less in my eyes. So you want to be a glutton for punishment, have at it. But don't get an attitude about it with others.

 

I remember when we had an old lincoln stick welder and a hacksaw, a chain hoist off of two 4x4's with 4x4 legs and little angle iron brackets to the ceiling. No torch, bolted damn near everything together. Had the welder and couldn't afford the rod for it. Parts use to be everywhere. A top box with a few tools, no heat in the garage, and the floor was mostly dirt. Worked on the engines on the bench. BTW, the bench was wood. I would not like to go back to that way of building. It was fun now that I look back on it but I'm too old to lift the crap we use to ect... plus I don't like cold. If your gonna build a car the traditional period correct way then you have to freeze your ass off in the junkyard getting parts off a car after work, plus quit your job so you can be as broke as we were, yeah you can build a period perfect car now but I just came from the swap meet in Wichita this weekend and you better have a lot of money cause that free peice of crap model T gas tank we use to get is gonna cost you $500 now. But I applaud the wanting to do it. Sorry for the long winded story, Oh and I figured out how those gas tanks got so high. I saw one go from table to table there, it gained a hundred bucks each time. Yeah, a $20 buck tank. LOL. Now back to the ghost and mr chicken................ Lippy

 

No. Just an exageration of an observation. I don't build cars that way, I don't expect anyone else to. I like the fact I can cut metal with a cutoff wheel. I wish I had a plazma machine. If you go back to the OP I was wondering if anyone took it to the extreame of doing the build exactly like it would have been done in say 1950. In fact I stated several times, I don't, can't, or expect a period car to be built in that fashion. I just know some are obsesive about having all parts that are period correct. I wondered if anyone actually built with period correct tools and methods.

But if you knew nothing and read some of the posts, and others in other threads those might be the conclusions you would make. I love my mig, I still stick weld heavy stuff, but if I had a big mig, I wouldn't. I have known other people who built stuff like they did back whenever. Sometimes I'm not sure even I get it. So I wondered if this carried over into the hot rod, custom world. And as someone else stated, maybe it does, but then maybe they wouldn't even have a computer to see this and respond.

You don't know unless you ask...........

 

You started the thread with the above statement, which is totally false.

For starters, a "real mechanic" or a "real craftsman" knows it takes some basic tools to do the work in a manner that gives decent results. The hammer and chisel dude ain't no mechanic, and a truckload of tools won't make him one.

You're also discounting skill when you claim "anyone can fix it with the right tools", and I can tell you based on 40+ years in the metalworking trades, that skill and accumulated knowledge makes up at least 90% of any well done project. Simply having the tools available doesn't magically create a craftsman, and in more than a few cases, having a wide selection of power tools only makes the classic torch and sledgehammer type more likely to hurt himself.

Spend a while going thru El Polacko's recent thread on building a chassis. He's got a very well equipped shop, and his work is outstanding. By your reasoning, anyone having Steve's equipment can produce results equal to Steve's, but in reality, nothing could be further from the truth.

You could take away his cnc plasma cutter, his cad-cam, and his press brake, and he'd still produce the same quality of work. He might be doing the work with a drill press, vertical bandsaw, and a handheld jig saw, and he'd probably have to make up weldments on a lot of parts he now forms in the brake. His drawings would be on paper rather than a computer screen. But the basic ability to envision a finished part, the ability to make the necessary measurements to create a drawing of something that'll work and fit, and the ability to turn that drawing into a finished part will still be right there.

Steve could hop in a time machine and go back 50 yrs, and he'd still produce the same quality work as he does today, because his skill and dedication to his craft would travel with him. OTOH, the torch and sledgehammer man from 50 yrs ago could travel forward and land in Steve's shop as it stands today, and he'd still be a torch and sledgehammer man. Skill, knowledge, and personal standards of quality can't be bought, or replaced by hi-zoot tools, and that's the real area where a lot of people just don't "get it".

 

That's what I was trying to say. You said it better than me.

 

No but in 2012 I have that pal mentioned above named ElPolacko that CAN weld for NASA. I have a couple pals around the country that can machine and I learned how to paint 30 years ago and have access to a paint booth. Ya just gotta want it.

 

With today's welding skills & tools . . . NO ONE is building them Truly Period Perfect!!!

 

I have started my new roadster build with the intention of having it very period correct in style. Period perfect must be the next level?

Maybe all work on the car will be with gas welding. I am not yet sure that I have the time or patience to do it all the way like this. I want the car to be ready for the road too.

All parts are period correct, in the sense that the rubber, wiring, motor parts etc. can be manufactured now. Otherwise frame, body, steering, axles, brakes, engine, transmission, wheels, lights etc. are original parts from 1946 and earlier.

But I guess that I won't make it all the way, building with only old tools and only old pre-1947 available technique.

My other new project will be a period full kustom 1947-48 California style car. How do I get the proper material and craftmanship for building a correct Gaylord top?

To me, the most important thing is the genuine parts all the way. That is what makes the look and also the right feeling when driving the car. I have very hard to believe that there is a difference in the feeling of driving a MIG och torch welded car. But some could see the difference in the untouched welds.

Would love to see someone go all that way.

 

I thought about the period correct bit, but im a sucker for disc brakes and modern A/C compressors (with the factory evap and controls). So my car won't qualify for this thread. Honestly i'm expecting to be told to fuck off (ie can't show my car) at a lot of the big custom shows over it. I am gunning for a period look on the outside though, so maybe ill sneak in.

 

If I did this, and recreated my 1960 car, would I have to siphon my gas out of the neighbors car again or could I cheat and buy it at the pump?

Seriously, the title of this thread should be "How Anal Are You Willing to Be?"

 

There is something about this thread that bothers me and I can't figure out what it is.

I think it maybe has to do with losing sight of what this is all really about. I really, really, appreciate an absolutely "period correct" car but it seems to me that to be obsessed with idea could put us dangerously close to being like a restorer who is looking for a 100-point car. I am part of the HAMB to get away from that.

Don't get me wrong, I would have a certain appreciation for someone who can build a car with period tools, techniques, and parts if it's for their own personal satisfaction, but to start going down that road as a group just doesn't feel right. I don't really want to start scrutinizing to the degree that we're making judgements on a car based on what tools were used. Am I the only one bugged by this thread? Is this what's really bugging me? I dunno, but I feel like I just french kissed my sister. Something ain't right.

Personally, I enjoy using the best tools available to me, period correct or not.

 

Something tells me you are not totally wrong...

 

I was Tig Welding in 1964. The machines (welders) were much bigger, but the quality was the same if you had the talent.

 

Yep. My dad still has a 250 amp P&H stick/tig machine he bought when he started his business in 57, and it was 2 or 3 yrs old when he bought it. No functional difference between it and transformer machines made 40-50 yrs later. Has hi-freq, gas and water valves, pre and post flow timers, foot pedal, etc. Main difference is that its about 3/4 the size of a refrigerator and weighs about as much as a moose. Not sure where the idea would've come from that tig is some late 60's invention, and the use of argon as the shielding gas was common in the 50's as well.

 

First covered stick electrode 1904
First portable welder 1911
MIG introduced in 1916 as atomic hydrogen welding later refined thru sub-arc and mig as we know it today. Had they used argon instead of hydrogen in 1916 they would have been doing what you do.
Tig introduced in 1940-41 as heli-arc. Before that aluminium was GAS WELDED oxygen and acetilene.

 

I get it, I really do. My current project, WAY O/T, is modern day, and I am going for that specific feel...in 1/2 scale, and it is a constant struggle. Parts and tooling are not the problem, but cannot get friends, who wanted to help, to understand the parameters of the build. So, I am left to my own to finish it, and I lack some of the skill sets. I am overcoming those slowly, but I refuse to give up on it.

I watch public broadcasting when I can, mostly because it supports a local college, and some rich guy has a 20 year project going on. It seems he is building a medievel castle and is requiring it all to be built with tools of the time. There is a blacksmith shop that makes new chisels and hammers as the previous ones wear out. The also had to build a people powered crane to lift the rocks to the higher parts...I hope they aren't paying the help with period correct wages...

 

"It takes a mechanic to fix it with a hammer and chisel"
If you thought that was meant to be taken seriously...........well I don't know. It was one of those stupid, humorous statements I probably got from some place or another such as cartoons. I was probably 16. And I agree with what you say. Quality work and habits are quality work and habits no matter the time you work in. Although I would also say it would take a little more skill and patience to turn out the same quality of work with hand tools. You can produce the same quality bracket with a cutting torch as a plasma cutter, you just have to spend more time with a grinder and file to achieve the same results. But it can and has been done. And crappy work with power tools just results in screwing it up at the speed of light.

 

If you like em run em. I would never presume to tell anyone how they should build a car. I would give my (probably worthless) advice only if asked. But it's like anything some are sticklers for details, and those details will vary from moment to moment.

 

That is probably correct, but I said it nicer, I hope. That was the point or question. I know some are obsessive over one thing or another, I just wanted to see if anyone was that obsessive (not necessarily a bad thing) over the build process. I find the concept interesting, challenging, and no I don't think I have the patience for it.

 

I don't suggest that. I share that appreciation of the lengths someone might go. I would not want to be looked down upon if I didn't do it the same way. Those 100 point cars have their place, and there is a place for just about anything else. I didn't ever suggest anyone should go to those lengths, just wondered if they had. I've seen it elsewhere just not in the auto hobby...........

 

Bingo...
Well stated.
We are no longer driving on period perfect roads, nor are we even capable of filling our fuel tanks with period perfect gasoline. Compromises will be made at some point. It is inevitable.....

 

Oops!