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question for all you pro TIG welders

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by DIRTYBIRD, Jun 20, 2005.

  1. DIRTYBIRD
    Joined: Feb 13, 2004
    Posts: 614

    DIRTYBIRD
    Member

    I just got my first TIG. I can MIG and OXY/ACETYLENE weld good.
    But for some reason I'm having troblue gettin the hang of TIG.
    How long did it take yall to get decent at it?

    Any recommendations for settings/electrodes for welding 18G steel.
    Rod - no rod?
    How long of bead can be welded before heat/distortion gets out of hand?
    Should I qnech w/water?
    It seems to be a slower process than i thought.

    Any feedback would help thanks.
     
  2. Slag Kustom
    Joined: May 10, 2004
    Posts: 4,312

    Slag Kustom
    Member

    it took me about 2 weeks of playing with the tig to make a decent weld.

    it is much slower then mig but on important things it is worth taking the time.
     
  3. 57JoeFoMoPar
    Joined: Sep 14, 2004
    Posts: 6,138

    57JoeFoMoPar
    Member

    It took me a little more time than Slag to get some good welds, about a month probably. Oddly enough,my musical background in guitar helped me out. It's sort of like jamming and using a wah pedal...both hands are doing 2 seperate operations and your foot is also involved.

    My rule of thumb is that if your weld is totally flat, then you didn't use enough filler rod. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but generally a small bead of filler is a good indication, kinda like a roll of dimes knocked over.

    Sheet metal can be tricky. I don't like to weld more than 2 inches at a time before either taking a break to let it cool or moving to another area of the piece. It takes a painfully long time, and it is often very uncomfortable since you can't just "point and click" like you can with a MIG, but the quality and strength of the welds is often worth it. For welds that have to be air/water tight, it's my only option.

    Settings very by machine, experiment with scrap to get a feel for the machine. The settings are half the battle. No matter who is welding, if it's too weak, the welds won't penetrate, if it's too hot, you'll warp and burn through.

    DO NOT quench sheet metal with water.

    Good luck and have fun
     
  4. Do NOT quench in water,if it's something you want to keep.
     

  5. DIRTYBIRD
    Joined: Feb 13, 2004
    Posts: 614

    DIRTYBIRD
    Member

    Thanks for the info guys.
    I'll be practicing alot, I'm totally
    stoked to be welding with it.
     
  6. Keep your head (eyes) close to your work...

    Learn to fuse a seam without filler... seam must be tight...
    Close tack everything or it will open up and you'll lose the edge.

    Practice feeding a length of filler wire through your fingers... about an inch at a time.
    Push it back and do it again... and again...and...



    JOE:cool:
     
  7. draggin ass
    Joined: Jun 17, 2005
    Posts: 1,920

    draggin ass
    BANNED
    from hell

    kinda hard to explain... well usually i push the pedel down a lot at first then let up on it, touch the rod into the melted metal. and just try to use the pedal to keep it nice and even. touch the rod every inch or so dragging the bead(just like oxy/act) make sure yer tip is clean and to a point. and yer argon gas is at the right setting.

    hope that wasnt a waste of yer time.....:cool: good luck. also make sure yer tig is set on DC for steal?? i think... AC is for aluminium? its been a while.:rolleyes:
     
  8. SimonSez
    Joined: Jul 1, 2001
    Posts: 1,637

    SimonSez
    Member

    I had the best success by running beads on sheet metal without using a rod first.

    Just run the bead down the middle of the steel and concentrate on your speed and arc length (and check the penetration as well).

    Then when you can do that consistently, try doing the same thing with a filler rod.

    Then you can move on to butt welds, etc.


    PS: Make sure you get TIG filler rod as well. When I first got my TIG I tried using regular gas rod, but it isn't pure enough.
     
  9. blue collar guy
    Joined: Apr 14, 2004
    Posts: 1,068

    blue collar guy
    Member

    Don't waist you time with any thing but mild steel untill you get the hang of it.
    One thing that is great about tig welding is that you can still work the metal after you weld it. That makes it worth the extra time it takes to weld ..The weld is not all britle like wire feed.
     
  10. blue collar guy
    Joined: Apr 14, 2004
    Posts: 1,068

    blue collar guy
    Member

    P.S. Also be aware of ware you ground your work .try to gound the metal on the ourher side from ware your working. I have had the shit shocked out of me a few times. Mostly on AC but a few times on DC.
     
  11. mugsy
    Joined: May 18, 2005
    Posts: 277

    mugsy
    Member
    from San Diego

    TIG takes A LOT of patience. It took me a while to run a bead that was a keeper and I had an instructor there to tell me what I was doing wrong (I got certified in the Navy). A couple weeks into it, I was very frustrated and didn't even want to do it anymore. I stuck it out and then finally things started to click. To give you an idea, the weld schools in the Navy are 2 weeks long for MIG and 8 weeks! long for TIG. We welded 7 hours a day, 5 days a week for 2 months. Granted our welds had to be x-rayed but, that's a big difference between the two classes. What I'm saying is don't get discouraged. Find yourself a good book and/or worthwhile video. There's good info and forums here: http://www.aws.org/

    A couple really important things, make sure you can SEE the puddle. Correct lens and use cheater glasses if you have to. This was an initial problem for me. After going a shade lighter on lens and using cheaters, holy crap! I could run a bead. Obviously you need to see with MIG as well but, TIG is so much more precise. You may have to try different combinations until you find what works for you.
    The other important thing is comfort. The more comfortable and relaxed you are, the better your welds will be. It sounds kinda silly I know but, it's very true.
    As far as power settings, crank that baby up. You need to learn to control power with your foot. Decide what your foot needs to do based on watching your puddle. A mistake I made when I was just starting out was to set the power where I thought was just enough. That way, I could just slam the peddle down and only worry about my hands. It just doesn't work and it's a bad habit. Plenty of power, watch your puddle, use the foot accordingly.
    Clean and sharpen your tip regularly.
    Oh yeah, the shock comment above reminded me of this. If you're welding for a while and your hand's getting sweaty, glove's getting wet, you may feel a little shock/tingly sensation in your rod hand. Use rubber gloves inside your welding gloves. If you're welding on a table and your torch hand is resting and sliding on table as you weld, use baby powder to avoid sticky spots. Helps with clean, even, smooth run.
    -David
     
  12. 440hudson
    Joined: Jul 24, 2004
    Posts: 95

    440hudson
    Alliance Vendor

    Guys,
    I've been welding on old heaps for over 25 years and thought I was hot shit. Bought a nice little tig and jumped right into aluminum, never been so frustrated in my life, except maybe that time back in high school with Mary Beth at the drivein! Ugliest welds in the world when I didn't blow a hole clean through. With the great info. you guys just served up I believe I'm going to dust that baby off and start all over. Thanks alot to all. Bob
     
  13. mugsy
    Joined: May 18, 2005
    Posts: 277

    mugsy
    Member
    from San Diego

    Ya got that right, Bob. Aluminum is very frustrating. That class I took started with aluminum butt welds. Man o man! That shite made me start smoking again!
    -David
     
  14. DIRTYBIRD
    Joined: Feb 13, 2004
    Posts: 614

    DIRTYBIRD
    Member

    Thanks for all the advice guys.
    I went out to the garage and practiced for
    about two hours today and It felt a lil better.
    I have had really shaky hands since I was a kid.
    But I've tackled drawing,modelcars,and pinstriping.
    I guess this is another thing I gotta get through.

    My TIG has a fingertip control, do you guys think
    The foot pedal is easier?
     
  15. draggin ass
    Joined: Jun 17, 2005
    Posts: 1,920

    draggin ass
    BANNED
    from hell

    definatly, esp if you got shaky hands.:)
     
  16. I don't think fingertips are adjustable like foot pedals. When you hit the button you get the amps that the welder is set for, right?

    I'd go for the adjustability of a rheostat, until you know what your doing.

    As for welding aluminum...
    I think it's easier than most people think. THERE is where you want a rheostat. If you can't back down your amperage, you're in trouble.
    If you are stuck with a non-adjustable amperage control, set you machine to where it takes awhile to get a puddle going. If you blast the heat right away, you fry the molecules on the surface before you get the whole area molten, and it will be all gray and fucked up looking...
    DON'T add wire until your puddle is ready (nice and shiny, with both pieces molten). You can stay on aluminum for a long time, if your welder isn't set too hot. Sometimes you need to gob wire in and melt it pretty, later, just to get a hole filled and enough material to disipate the arc. This can be done with aluminum, but stainless doesn't like to be reheated too many times.
    If your weld, for whatever reason, becomes "ugly"... STOP, and clean it. When you start you'll be surprised on how pretty it will flow again.

    Good practice on arc and wire control is to stand a piece on edge, and build it up... one bead at a time. I've built boat props back up that had half the blade missing. Push your wire off the edge, rather than at it. This will give you better build-up. I use 4043 aluminum for most everything.

    DON'T use too big of a wire diameter. I use 1/16 filler rod for almost everything. If you have too heavy of a wire, you need to throw too much heat at the work before the wire will flow. Too small and you can't get it in fast enough.

    I like watching guys learn TIG. They go from, "FUCK, I'll never get this!" to "DAMN!, this is easy!" in a split second, once they "feel" what they're doing.
    That, and when they use their tungsten as filler...:D
    For steel and stainless, you want a sharp tungsten, sticking out about 3/16 form the cup. With aluminum, I like to put it even with the cup. It will burn back, until a ball forms, so you need to adjust it, once.
    ...and DON'T use a metal cup when you weld aluminum. The hi-freq will arc onto the cup and throw the arc everywhere but where you want it.



    JOE:cool:
     
  17. RockyMtnPits
    Joined: Nov 6, 2002
    Posts: 118

    RockyMtnPits
    Member

    2% thoriated tungsten, and I use E308 rod..pure argon.
    takes some practice, but its easy.. you will get it
     
  18. WOW,


    This is the type of post I like to see. Even a guy with no or little welding experience feels like he could attempt it. Thanks to all those who posted their tips and experience.

    Do any of you have time to teach me?:D What is the going rate? My local tech college is sleeping until the damn high school kids get done with summer vacation.:confused:

    Thanks again,

    Phil
     
  19. trey
    Joined: Sep 11, 2003
    Posts: 1,220

    trey
    Member

    for me, foot pedal is easier. i have very shakey hands too, so i position myself so that i can rest my elbows on my knees whenever possible. good luck, tig is a drug.

    trey
     
  20. Bass
    Joined: Jul 9, 2001
    Posts: 3,354

    Bass
    Member
    from Dallas, TX

    I'm also teaching myself to TIG...with good advice from Jimmy White (Circle City) and Bob Wilson (Wilson Welding), I'm getting pretty decent already after having my machine less than a month. I bought an older water-cooled 250A Miller Dialarc HF.

    Everything Junkyard Dog just said is great advice. Some basics I've picked up just in the past month...I'm no expert (yet :) ), but maybe this will help other beginners:

    1.) Get comfortable. This is probably the most important step to a nice weld. If you can dedicate a spot in your shop just for welding smaller items on a table, then do so.

    2.) Make sure you have the right tungsten for the job. I've been using 2% thoriated for steel, pure tungsten for aluminum. You can decide which diameter of tungsten to use based on the thickness of material you're welding....usually the tungsten should be close to half the thinckness of your material. If you're welding 1/8" plate, you should use a 1/16" tungsten. Actually 1/16" tungsten works well for most sheetmetal and mild steel up to 1/8". Anything thicker use 3/32".....if you're welding a bridge together I guess you could use an 1/8" tungsten (not necessary for most hot rod builders.)

    3.) Clean and sharpen your tungsten. Important....the tungsten needs to be very clean for a good arc. Like mentioned above, sharpen the tungsten to a fine point for steel, a little more blunt for aluminum. When using pure tungsten don't spend a lot of time trying to ball the end before welding...when you start the arc it will ball itself. Get a scrap piece to do this on before welding your part...or arc it against the welding table before welding.

    Don't touch the tungsten to the surface (unless you have scratch start)...if you do, stop immediately to clean and sharpen it again.

    4.) Set the machine for what you're welding. For steel, DC- (or straight polarity), AC for aluminum....high frequency constant. Note that some (most?) machines are marked with different amp ranges for DC and AC.

    5.) Gas. Set Argon flow for your material. 1/8" steel takes about 25 cfh, sheetmetal takes a little less. Generally you use as large a (ceramic) torch cup as you can on the surface you're welding to keep your bead in the shielding gas. If your machine has a "purge" after shutting off the arc, hold it over the end of your bead until the gas shuts off...usually around 5-6 seconds.

    6.) PUSH the bead towards your filler rod. Add filler as necessary. It takes practice to smoothly and rythmatically feed the rod into the puddle...I think this is one of the most difficult parts of TIG welding.

    7.) Use the right filler for the job. There are good examples above. 1/16" is right for most jobs... 3/32" is hard to feed and cools the puddle too much usually. I've also used MIG wire as filler on sheetmetal with good results. 4043 is best for most aluminum.

    8.) Be patient and keep practicing. TIG welding is fucking hard.


    The one thing I keep getting conflicting information on is foot pedal operation. Some people say they work the foot pedal as they run the bead....others say they drop the pedal all the way to start the puddle then back off to a set spot and hold it as they run the bead. I'd like to get some more feedback on this.

    Hope that helps, and if any of you pros want to add anything or correct me if I'm wrong, please do so.

    -Brian
     
  21. 30roadster
    Joined: Aug 19, 2003
    Posts: 1,793

    30roadster
    Member

    this is all great advice!
    One thing not mentioned is grinding your 2% tungsten for steel - a minor point - but - A lot of guys will spin it around on a grinder until they get their tip. grind it parallel then lift up...rotate and grind it parallel...repeat until you have your pointed tip. your grind "scratches" should all be parallel with the long axis of your tungsten when your finished. it will make a much prettier concentrated arc. will it work fine spinning it around on the grinder? ....yes... it just works better parallel
     
  22. DIRTYBIRD
    Joined: Feb 13, 2004
    Posts: 614

    DIRTYBIRD
    Member

    Once again guys.
    Thanks a lot for the help!
     
  23. autocol
    Joined: Jul 11, 2002
    Posts: 589

    autocol
    Member

    i will disagree with brian on one point - TIG welding is NOT hard! it's only hard until you know what you're doing, and then it's the most satisfying welding there is.

    my TIG machine has a finger-dial too, never used a foot-pedal one but i find it very easy to adjust. i usually hold it like an oxy torch and use my thumb, but the other guy at work holds it like a steak knife and uses his fore-finger.

    either way, that shouldn't be a great impediment to good welding.

    the thing that MOST improved my TIG welding (which has gotten to the point that i get pissed off if i don't get a nice "line of coins" with my beads) was buying a dirt-cheap auto-darkening welding helmet with adjustable darkness. the thing was $150 australian, which is like US$100.

    it does two things - firstly, because with TIG you need two hands, you can get settled and ready to weld, without then having to do your best "i'm plowboy listening to GnR's" impression and headbang until your mask is down, by which time you've lost your spot. secondly, you can get the darkness (another band i'm sure plowboy likes!!! haha!) just right, and as someone said, being able to SEE the puddle is the most important thing.

    the way i learned - and i had it pretty dialed in a couple of days (doing the small variety of stuff i do, i wouldn't have a clue with aluminium or really thick stuff) - was to start without filler wire. just lay a piece of, say 2 or 3mm thick (that's about 1/8") mild steel on top of some other mild steel. as mentioned above, set the amperage at the welder pretty high so you have a good range of power available at the torch.

    crank that sucker up, and try to melt the edge of the top piece of steel down onto the bottom piece. without wire, so you can steady yourself and get a feel for moving the puddle. don't get too silly with the heat, just slowly crank it up until you can see it melting, and then move the torch in very fine increments to "pull" the puddle around where you want it to go.

    i always "push" the torch - that is, i travel in the direction the tungsten is facing. i almost never pull it, like i do sometimes with MIG.

    once you want to start adding wire, you'll need to get a feel for how much "puddle" you need to dip the wire into. once you really get the hang of it you can stop waving the torch to get the puddle where you want it, instead you just crank the heat and move at a good pace, constantly feeding wire into it as you move. it's fast that way, but the welds don't get that nice bead effect, they end up smooth all the way along.

    until then, you'll need to learn by experimentation to see when the puddle needs wire, and when you've got enough material there to create the bead you need.

    practice = perfect.

    oh yeah, ALWAYS keep your tip sharp! i know when you start it's a pain in the arse sharpening it all the time (which you will because you'll keep dipping the bastard into the weld puddle), but you do yourself NO favours by trying to continue welding with a tip that has a big, rounded gob of shit on it. the thinner and sharper the point, the easier it is to control the puddle.

    good luck, have fun. TIG kicks arse!
     
  24. 392_hemi
    Joined: Jun 16, 2004
    Posts: 1,736

    392_hemi
    Member

    Two quick points to add. One, the key to the whole thing, just like any other type of welding, is being able to read the puddle. If you're decent at gas welding, you should have a real good head start on TiG. But getting the hang of working the pedal will take a bit of practice. Second, when welding aluminum, it seems 90% of the problems are related to surface preparation. Aluminum has an oxide coating that has to be removed, either by brushing, chemical action, or some other method. The reason for this is the oxide coating burns at a much higher temperature than the underlying material. So once you manage to burn through the oxide coating, you almost instantly have a hole in the material beneath it.
     
  25. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 30,629

    The37Kid
    Member

    You guys have no idea how much I miss TIG welding, and want a unit of my own some day. I used to TIG aluminum body work in a restoration shop years ago, NEVER got a chance to TIG steel and would jump at the chance to see if I could get the same finish. Nothing looks nicer than the roll of dimes look of an aluminum TIG bead. I do remember grinding the tungstin rod to a sharp point and then burning on a ball to the tip was real important.
     
  26. autocol
    Joined: Jul 11, 2002
    Posts: 589

    autocol
    Member

    yep, but you only want the ball on the tip for aluminium work, not steel...
     
  27. 392_hemi
    Joined: Jun 16, 2004
    Posts: 1,736

    392_hemi
    Member

    With the new inverter machines (Miller Dynasty 300), a sharpened 2% thoriated tungsten is the way to go for aluminum. Couldn't get it to work for sh*t with a balled electrode.
     
  28. SimonSez
    Joined: Jul 1, 2001
    Posts: 1,637

    SimonSez
    Member

    Another tip that saves time when you are learning is to sharpen your tungsten at both ends.

    When it gets contaminated, you can just swap ends and get straight back into it.
     
  29. T McG
    Joined: Feb 12, 2005
    Posts: 1,262

    T McG
    Member
    from Phoenix

    There is some very good advice here, but all the advice in the world won't help unless you practice a lot. You will get good at it as long as you get comfortable and relax. A couple of things worth noting are 1) If you are welding thinner materials, cut the main power setting back to 50 or so amps, and the machine won't start as hard. 2) Adjust the AC balance dial to a lower setting for less penetration, and more for more. 3) The HF setting will screw up yours and your neighbors phones if it is set too high. Mine is set around 3-4. 4) Keep you gas flow around 15 - 20 lbs. max. Also your filler rod and tungsten sizes should be close to the thickness of the material you are welding, specifically on thinner materials. Tungstens are color coded, red is for steel and stainless,(can be used for aluminum too), green is for aluminum, and if you get into heavy aluminum, you can get brown. You can weld steel to stainless as long as you use a stainless filler rod, and the number on the filler rod should be higher than the stainless you are welding, if you know what it is. And last, 5356 aluminum is a good all around filler rod for all types of aluminum, and will give you a nice shiny bead. You now have enough information to be dangerous!
     
  30. Split Bones
    Joined: Jun 4, 2005
    Posts: 88

    Split Bones
    Member

    All great advice....i have been tig welding for round 20 years.. steel , ally ,stainless even copper...one thing i will add that i dont think has been said...is in doing panels...or well for any sheet joins is to use a method called "back welding"...which is ....sy you have a seam bout 2 foot to weld..make sure the join is as close as you can get it...then open the far end of the join up about "1/4 then tack up right to left ...or left to right if you are left handed.....dont worry bout the gap as the panels will suck together as u tack...this stops the weld seam from peaking....then close tack...say every "1/4 if not closer.....then for the "back weld"..using a marker pen divide the seam up in to "2 sections...then go to the first section on the LEFT side. ....weld the "2 section RIGHT to LEFT then stop...move on to the next "2 then weld RIGHT to LEFT and so on ....what this does is it stops the heat of the weld from spreading out through the metal as what happens when weld in one direction...the heat just stays closer to the seam in the sheet ...and will stop warp and buckle....i know this might be a bit hard to understand ....but i think i got it right ....or was that left:D ....being comfortable is the key....and the rest is just practice
     

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