An injected mill that doesn't run worth a shit is never as cool as a carbureted mill that screams. To run on the street with it mechanical you need a pete jackson stepped bypass. that gives you a mid rang and top end. A manual fuel shut off with the handle in the cab or a fuel regulator like they use on sprint cars is also a must; the later gives you fuel in the cab. You can use the fuel shutoff to trim it as you drive, or adjust the regulator to do the same thing. A surge tank mounted above the pump is a must, you use an electric pump at the main tank and it goes to a pair of float bowls mounted on the surge tank to regulate the fuel in the tank, then you run your return line to the tank so when is bypasses it helps keep the tank full. With it mounted above the mechanical pump it will gravity feed the pump so you don't have to spray it to start it. With the hilborn unit you will need to fiddle with the butterfly adjustment as the engine warms if you want it to run optimum, they are close to the head and heat/expansion effects them. This is not to rain on your parade and I have no doubt missed a ton of what you will need to know. Just be aware that the learning curve is going to be large. If you are a tuner and enjoy tunning you are going to have a blast. There is going to be some give and take with it but that hot rodding, isn't it.
That is one neglected lookin' pile of bits. I hope it was cheap. I think you misunderstood the term "pump drive". The drive,commonly referred to as a"spud",bolts to the front of the cam gear with 3-5/16 allen caps and that hex on the end of the pump plugs into the spud. With that frt cover set up the original deal was prolly belt driven not cam. So that is something he needs to find for you. If you intend to run a cam drive a one peice cover is more user friendly. (don't have to mod the "cam cover" Either way,you are limited to a 6" damper,or a hub,or a 6.25 damper and cut the pump flange for clearance. The "pills" are how you control your main mixture ,a bigger "pill" returns more fuel to the tank and puts less in the engine and a smaller "pill" returns less fuel to the tank and puts more in the engine. The regulator P&B reffered to is a "Dial a Jet"which allows you to put a host of jets(pills)in a device in the cockpit and you just rotate it to the desired main jet to alter base mixture for given conditions. You might do well to get both of Kinslers catalogues and read 'em cover to cover before you really commit to embark on this escapade.They will either clear some things up for you or confuse you to death. Either way,best of luck as you're in for an adventure for sure.
Yo baby, That's for the id on the regulator, I have played with them but didn't know the name. I think that if he is going to drive it on the street he is probably better off with a belt driven pump then he can use a normal water pump. I am not a big fan of electric pumps for street driven vehicles. Late model cars use them but they are not inline as a rule. Its like I said before the learning curve is big but not insurmountable.
Actually it was Bosch who invented and perfected mechanical fuel injection in the late 30's. They used the CIS system in Mescherscmidt airplanes then. Volkswagen and other german car manufacturers adapted it for cars and used it until the late 80's. It is a cool setup once you understand it and very reliable. It compensates the fuel flow by measuring airflow to the butterfly in the intake and therefore runs at the right mixture regardless of engine speed or load. Something that the Hilborn lacks and is why you have to modify them to perform on the street. I've considered using two of them on a v8.
I have been working with mechanical injections since the early 70's mostly on race applications. I wouldnt want to run one on my daily driver. They are not very precise in their fuel delivery... great at WOT with the right pill and proper high speed regulator setting.. providing you have the right size pump and nozzels. And will idle ok with a lot of fiddling around. Even the mid range can be made to kinda work with a properly setup mid range bypass. Buts its never gonna meter the right amount of fuel at all throttle positions. It will usually have to be set way rich in the part throttle positions and on gas thats not something I want to drive. On alcohol its a lot better but i dont consider methanol the optimal street fuel. Bottom line is yes with enough work they are drivable on the street but it depends on your definition of "drivable".
its hot rodding. the more info i can get the better it will be. i didnt missunderstand you on the pump drive, it bolts to the cam. heres a pic. please continue any info. porknbeaner, ive heard a little info about this surge tank today at work. but they really didnt know how it worked and you touched on it some.
As I said several times in this thread......the race prepared injection will not work on the street, but if you know how to modify it, Hilborn mechanical injection can be made very driveable on the street.....great idle, great mid-range response, and great at WOT. It drives every bit as well as a carbureted engine. It's not majic, and you will not get there by trial and error......no fiddling around, just plain old engineering (real science and physics - no comic book stuff). It may be difficult for most to understand or believe, but real engineers can do these things.
Basically the set up I described keeps a load of fuel above the pump so that you don't have to prime it to start it. Holley float bowls work real well ro regulate the amount of fuel that is in the tank from your mail fuel source. it needs to have fuel in it all the time but not so much that when you bypass fuel it overflows the tank. I have heard of guys saying that they get from 10 to as much as 14 MPG with a small block but you had probably better plan on 6 to as much as 8 MPG. Maybe as low as 4MPG on a bad day. I set up a hat injector on a tunnel ram for a fella back in rthe 90s and it did much better as far as drivability goes that a stack injection. You runners on a stack injection ar real short and separated, best suited for high rpms. The hat on the tunnel had the plenum for a buffer and longer runners. That said I have known a few people over the years that have run stacks on the street and done OK. Not good on their best day but OK. Ok made them very happy and balls to the walls their setups worked real well. Here is something to think about, TV Tommy had a stack setup on the T for awhile. I was reading an interview and in it he said that it ran so fat that every time he ran it he had to change his oil, the oil would get gas fouled. That was early on for him in his career and I am sure that by the end of it all he could have sorted it out. Take a while to learn but it is a good skill to ad to those that you will posses by the end of the game.
Hi deerchooper. My name is Rick. I have been tuning/assisting on drag only Hilborns for 30+ yrs. All big blocks or Early Hemis. I am very willing to shale what I know. No one here has said anything "wrong" We all have opinions. Let me know how I can help you enjoy one of the finest crafts in motorsports... tuning a Hilborn! To the rest of you.... Let the man play... and be supportive! 8 mpg and cool is way more "bitchen" than a hybrid or anything else new that's legal in Cali.
thanks rick. i got a bunch of stuff to read. i know i will have questions soon. as for mpg, i get 10 mpg on my 34 olds 455olds powered now and im looking to put on a 671 over the winter.
I have been following this post from the beginning and I 100% agree with you on street driving a mechanical injected motor on the street . My 33 willys Street car i would think nothing of driving 50, 100 200 mile trips at a time . Car sits in traffic idles at 800 rpm . My system is a 2 7/8 stack injection Hilborn with Kinsler nozzles and barrel valve , Kinsler vapour separater Hilborn 150/c pump . i built my own dial ajet it carrys 3 jets ,one for lean street driving ,one for burn out so it doesn't load the motor and one for when the car is on the starting line in the beams when i race the car. I would never even consider running a carb set up . Or going to EFI .My car has been 7.41@188 thru the mufflers on dot tires . 2 nos foggers on board also . The only problem i have seen guys have when the heat gets to the butterflies it will let the idle creep up . In my car if this happens i just turn the jet to the fatter race one and the idle will come back down .There is some basic rules of work to street a unit. You have to pay attn to the spool # in the barrel valve and what nozzel # right from the start in building the injector . Same with secondary pressure etc. Map out the system before you start and keep your barrel valve leakdown % on the low side .Mine is at 6% but it will depend on were idle to crisp throttle hits in your base line setting . My car is on the Kinsler web site the 33willys with the front wheels 3 feet in the air coming off the starting line . Im in the process of building a new 3" Hilborn 3 piece stack injection all aluminum 632 with 4 stages that WILL drive on the street . MFI all the way
also keep the pump as low as you can in the car . belt drive it for sure. Look into kinslers Vapour sep. system for easy starting .
IMO there is nothing that looks better in the way of induction systems than old style fuel injection. Good luck getting it set up, you will with the help of these guys get it done. Nice buy.
Hotrodart (or anyone), did you guys ever play around with a vacuum pressure regulator as found on modern EFI systems? I have a 3" Crower setup on my 480 BBC supermodified engine. I've been looking off and on at ways to "streeterize" it, and that vacuum bypass regulator keeps drawing my attention... Steve Faria helped me set mine up, and he showed me how to drill and tap the fuel cavity in the barrel valve and mount the high-speed bypasses there instead of at the pump. Seems to keep the engine cleaned out a lot better when you shut the throttle.
I was trying to incorporate a vacuum regulator in the original design, but could not come up with a suitable vacuum port location. Notice that we are using a circa 1956 multi-piece stack unit. We re-designed the by-passes and barrel valve to accomplish what was needed. The engine does not load up at all and has great response throughout the rpm and load range. A secondary by-pass off the barrel valve takes care of rapid decelleration loading........same set up used by the sprint car guys.
we are getting somewhere, lol. i know it might take some time for me to get this on, but i couldnt wait to see it on the motor. so i took off the manifold and slammed on the hilborn. ive been to kilsner and hilborn web site reading. boy oh boy lol. i did send hilborn pictures of my intake with the casting numbers. i didnt see any hand stamped numbers under there.
Deerchooper not to hijack your thread but im going thru the same thing you are .I got a Hilborn injection setup for my small block ford 289 for my comet and I emailed alkydigger when someone brought up his name. I finally got the original paperwork from the guy I bought it off of to let him know what all I have and Im gonna send him pics of the unit tomorrow .But he sells the entire setup to make it streetable and it seems really reasonably priced. Check out his website ...Jim
hey jim, any and all info is welcomed here. when you get more info please post what you came up with. thanks everyone who has posted. i will need the help as time progresses, im still learning as everyone posts. terry
Mine's a circa 1969 stack... Pictured here on my old super. Any thoughts on "average vacuum"? I have room under the manifold to build a house...or at least tap all 8 runners and plumb in a common vacuum "box" to serve the regulator.
Vacuum signals will depend a lot on the cam specs. I was thinking of grabbing a signal off the air cleaner box....much like Rochester did. Then we decided to drop the air cleaner.....looked too awful for a hot rod. We did not want to tap the castings......trying to preserve a piece of history......it's one of the first units Hilborn made for SBCs. Using one port with an amplifier might work. Your scheme sounds reasonable to me.
I have a 3' crower set up on mine. Its very streetable and has seen limited road miles. A tad bit of ingenuity is in order to tune it. Experence was MY biggest help....trial and error. Poor milage and limited mid range discribe it a bit,,,,,,,,,,however its assured...when we show OR race were the ONLY ones doing the mechanal fuel injection around. That ALONE is worth the price of admission...x 100. In my case, I tried it and I will never go to a carb,,,,,No way Try it, you'll love it John
Great looking Super! The way it's written it may be confusing to some. We didn't start building engine offset cars at 18" to 22" until 1977. Jimmy Shampine was the first and everyone followed withing a few months. Yours is a good example of the modern day offset. Good looking car. Your going to have one great time running it.
So, nobody is going to post about the peaks and valleys in the powerband that are inherant to an I/R manifold?
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