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hilborn help

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by deerchooper, Jan 26, 2012.

  1. deerchooper
    Joined: May 1, 2010
    Posts: 131

    deerchooper
    Member

    hello all,

    i bought a new toy today and need some help. i bought a hilborn system today, the guy that owned it said he used to run it back in the day on the track. he is looking for more parts for it.

    what he told me was

    the pump bolts to the cam, the correct cover for the timing chain cover held the bearing and the pump bolted to it. he also stated he ran a electric inline water pump.

    what i would like to know is what am i missing so i can see if i can find it if he cant come up with it?

    how does the linkage hook up?
    any info on the plumbing?
    what about these fuel pills i hear about?
    is there any links i can read up on? i did a search here.

    heres some pics of what i got

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    thank you for the help!!
     
  2. 34andy
    Joined: Mar 21, 2007
    Posts: 130

    34andy
    Member
    from WA

  3. Pro Shifted
    Joined: May 18, 2010
    Posts: 51

    Pro Shifted
    Member

    I have worked on that type barrel valve system before and I ended up changing the barrel valve out for one with a return. You will save yourself alot time by going to the later model (return style) barrel valve. Good luck.

    also, I don't know what that ball balve is on the inlet but it dosen't belong there.
     
  4. You need to be schooled on mechanical injection, how it works, and what you can expect out of it. I would call Hilborn, tell them what you have, and what you want to do with it. Let them tell you what you need. Get the info you need from the people who invented mechanical fuel injection. Get ready for an education.
     

  5. Do you want to use the Hilborns on an engine capable of driving on the street? Do you want it to: get descent mileage, start easily, idle fairly well and have descent partial throttle response? If so, you should consider converting the Hilborn stacks to EFI.

    I have been wrestling with making my vintage Hilborns look right but still deliver good drivability. With lots of help, and after a false start I think I have found a workable combination. My big mistake was not investing in a sufficiently powerful EFI computer. Converting a stack injection system (one throttle plate per intake port) that does not have a vacuum plenum is not easy. Stack systems are far more difficult to control compared to a “standard” EFI system with an intake plenum (i.e., reliable vacuum signal).

    If you will be using the Hilborns in competition and racing, then find a mechanical fuel expert, even if you have to pay for a bit of consulting time.

    In the last few months Hot Rod Mag had a pretty good article on how to make a traditional mechanical fuel injection setup work on the street; however even with expert knowledge and lots of custom-made parts the unit will still not deliver both descent mileage and descent power; you get one or the other.

    Remember the original Hilborn mechanical FI was designed to operate at wide open throttle. No one cared whether the engine could idle; and as for starting you could always squirt some raw fuel down the stacks.

    If you think I can help, don’t hesitate to send me a PM.

    trakrodstr
     
  6. deerchooper
    Joined: May 1, 2010
    Posts: 131

    deerchooper
    Member

    thank you guys for the help so far.

    i did find hilborns web site and trolled around there. there is alot of stuff that goes into one of these.
     
  7. deerchooper
    Joined: May 1, 2010
    Posts: 131

    deerchooper
    Member

    i am looking to run it on the street if possable. looks to be a adventure with this system, but the cool factor will out weigh it.
     
  8. snaptwo
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 696

    snaptwo
    Member

    What he said plus it appears the pump drive is missing as well . The whole thing looks as it wasn't taken to much care of judging from the rust and oxidation. Looks like a -0- pump probably for gas. There should also be some numbers on the port nozzles to ID them. Same goes for barrel valve. Get some pics to Hilborn and they can give you an idea what it would cost to restore it. I have no idea what you intend to use it on , street,oval or drags ,good to know before making inquiries. On of my friends has a unit like that on his SBC mid-engined saidrail and it kicks butt !!
     
  9. deerchooper
    Joined: May 1, 2010
    Posts: 131

    deerchooper
    Member

    snaptwo, the pump drive is on the end of the pump. hard to see in the pics.
     
  10. Don't listen to the guys who say you cannot get Hilborn mechanical injection to run well on the street. They are correct in that it was designed for wide open throttle for drag racing, but remember the circle track boys use part throttle all the time. They have figured out what needs to be done. My son and I re-engineered his early Hilborn to be a perfect street performer with great idle and instantaneous accelleration. It took several pages of technical calculations to get it in the ball-park, and design the system so it would fire up when we put it together. Fuel economy is poor, but it's a hot rod not an econobox.

    We overcame the hard starting with an electric pump as a primer......just toggle a switch and it fires right up. As for the finicky behavior, we used a dial-a-jet to fine tune for temp and humidity variations. We designed the barrel valve and by-passes to work real well in all conditions. We relocated the main fuel pump to the driver side....best solution for us.

    The cost to rebuild the entire unit, including the pump is not trivial.....something you need to consider. The ancillary stuff, like linkages and fuel lines are fairly easy to fabricate.....
     

    Attached Files:

  11. 35WINDOW
    Joined: Jul 7, 2005
    Posts: 454

    35WINDOW
    Member

    There have been numerous poeple that have made a Mechanical Hilborn work on the street, but you will compromise in one way or another (fuel economy, starting issues, part throttle driveability)-

    I am buying a new Hilborn system in a few weeks from Andy @ Hilborn, and for the most trouble-free experience I would highly recommend him-otherwise, if I had you set-up, I would get ahold of Fran Olson-he can put the Injectors in your unit, and highly recommends Megasquirt for the EFI portion (which is the cheapest way to go)-this is his webiste:

    http://foxinjection.com/efi-conversions.html

    Also, BDS (Craig Railsback) can help with a conversion-
     
  12. 35WINDOW - Starting, part throttle driveability are absolute myths......only true for poorly designed and set up units. These injection units can be designed and built to give great all around performance......my son's Hilborn is living proof. I will give you the poor fuel economy.......but you can't have plenty of power and vintage looks for free........ If you want modern technology, and do not have the knowledge and skills to set up a mechanical injection, go for EFI......
     
  13. 35WINDOW
    Joined: Jul 7, 2005
    Posts: 454

    35WINDOW
    Member


    Then I will stand corrected-beautiful Car btw-
     
  14. deerchooper
    Joined: May 1, 2010
    Posts: 131

    deerchooper
    Member

    you have alot going on, on the manifold. would you care to break down your system to us or how you have come about your set up? is your motor stock or wild?

    i want to learn everything i can before i get left scratching my head during a phone call to someone. lol.
     
  15. DEERCHOPPER - The plumbing on the valley cover (it's not a manifold) is a bit too complex to explain by text here. It consists mainly of fuel lines and by-passes required, and pressure guages. The fuel distribution block and valve are separate on this unit. I suggest you read up on how Hilborns are pieced together, and their basic operation, then we can PM, rather than tie up this forum. You will need some technical schooling on these before you will be able to understand how to modify and tailor your unit to your engine........volumetric efficiencies, flow calculations (air and fuel), etc. My guess is there is not much interest in the technical details. I have a set of sample calculations and a fuel system schematic if we get that far.......

    The engine is a Trans America Series Z-28 engine (302).....not the one you get in a showroom Camaro, the one that was on the track.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2012
  16. Don't listen to the guys who say that by adding gizmos and work-arounds that they can make a mechanical fuel injection "run well" on the street.

    Of course the term "run well" is open to interpretation. If you want to get 8 mpg at partial throttle on a flat road then you will probably agree that the mechanical system "runs well". At that rate you can buy the components for a state of the art EFI system.

    Unfortunately nether you, nor a mechanical injection enthusiast, can change the laws of physics. Without a manifold (vacuum) plenum a stack injection system requires lots of data imputs to regulate PARTIAL THROTTLE TIP IN at light loads. This is not the same as quick throttle plate changes characteristic of sprint cars. Where the physics of stack injection become difficult is when you want to slightly open the throttle to gain a few miles per hour when driving under low demand conditions. Which is a common occurrence when driving on real roads in traffic.

    The various work-arounds, and gyzmos that improve the drivability of a mechanical stack system are reinventing the wheel. A well set up EFI stack system, is not prefect, but will be more drivable and get better mileage than a extensively modified mechanical system. That's because the digital computer and make decisions, faster, and based on more imputs, than any analogue (mechanical) system.

    It is true that if you fiddle around enough, and you run a mechanical system rich enough, for example where the air to fuel ratios (stoichemetry) are about 10:1 instead of 14:1, the mechanical system will function on the street. However, that is not the way Hilborns stacks were used in the old days; thus, one could argue that a highly modified set of Hilborn mechanical stacks is no more authentic that an EFI based system. As evidence of this truth just look at the fact that the Hilborn Co now sells stack injection systems for the street...guess what?...the new Hilborn systems are EFI.

    The main advantage to running a modified mechanical system is that it looks cool, as it appears authentic with the barrel valve and so forth. On a Chevy V8, I agree, it's hard to hide the fuel rail and the EFI nozzles. This however is not true of early Mopar Hemis where you can hide all of the electronics. Most enthusiasts who examine my Dodge Hemi don't realize that the Hilborns are EFI until they study the system closely.
     
  17. Manual transmission will make things easier to manipulate, on the street
     
  18. Pro Shifted
    Joined: May 18, 2010
    Posts: 51

    Pro Shifted
    Member

     
  19. Pro Shifted
    Joined: May 18, 2010
    Posts: 51

    Pro Shifted
    Member


    This is way wrong
     
  20. Thank you for that, I greatly appreciate it.
     
  21. Pro Shifted
    Joined: May 18, 2010
    Posts: 51

    Pro Shifted
    Member


    With an automatic transmission you go from idle to part throttle and leave your position pretty much alone. Clutch type car you are opening and closing the throttle each time you make a gearchange. Not to mention all the throttleblade an 8 barrel offers, you are talking about a pretty jerky ride. Your welcome for my not so humble opinion.
     
  22. TRAKRODSTR - You clearly have a few good technical buzz words, but do you have the engineering knowledge and hands on experience with mechanical injection to back them up? Your statements about "runs well", driveability, work-arounds and gyzmos are way off the mark. No one needs to change the laws of physics, just know how to employ them correctly. I have been messing with mechanical injection since 1963, have a bucket full of engineering degrees and over 45 years of practicing engineering. You can chide these things, but unless you understand the technical aspects and have actually run one, maybe you should defer to those who have and stick with EFI.
     
  23. A friend of mine ran his Enderle injected rdstr on the street for 20 yrs, as his daily driver. Using an automatic it would foul the plugs, since it was rich to compensate for the RPM drop, once put into gear at idle. So when I finished buying my set up, he agreed to help, as long as I used a stick. Oh yeah.. he currently holds the Record at El Mirage in C/STR @ 193.9 mph. So hopefully he knows what he's talking about, cos I don't know nothin'!
     
  24. Pro Shifted
    Joined: May 18, 2010
    Posts: 51

    Pro Shifted
    Member


    Have YOU driven YOURS yet?
     
  25. No, but I have driven his.. I understand you know what you know. But your experiences with your set up are not end all, be all. bah bye
     
  26. Pro Shifted - If your question was for me....the answer is: it went on the road 2 years ago with plenty of street time. If anyone thinks a mechanical injection "out of the box" and bolted on will be streetable, they are way wrong. Because someone knows how to make a race car go fast at El Mirage does not mean they know how to modify one of these for the street....2 different animals. Some guys might get lucky and get a combination of things that work by trial and error. Others have the engineering knowledge to design and fabricate the correct parts, and keep it running well. BTW: the car runs an M21 trans and a 3.50 gear.....if you feel that's important to know.
     
  27. SKULL ORCHARD
    Joined: Jul 22, 2009
    Posts: 431

    SKULL ORCHARD
    Member
    from KS
    1. The Gas House Gang

    look up alkydigger here or his web site, he can make this happen for you he is very good and does it for a living. i own a kinsler unit they are not real helpful on a call. we have been 9 flat @147 in 1/4 it gets 5 mpg at traffic speed on methonal, gas is another game completly.( look up the digger.)
     
  28. DaveyJonez
    Joined: Feb 20, 2006
    Posts: 518

    DaveyJonez
    Member
    from Houston

    Hi Hotrodart-

    Just for comparison- what size motor and total nozzle area (total orifice)?

    Also gpm @ 4000 rpm? (not pump volume, but volume into the motor @ ~4000?)

    Thanks in Advance,
    Dave
     
  29. For my 408 I'm running #7 nozzles with a 80A 0 pump putting out 2.0 gal/min at 2000..3.8 @ 4000
     

  30. DAVE - Total nozzle area is 0.0025 (6A nozzles - 6% leak rate). GPM (consumed) @ 4500 RPM is 0.326 (#50A pump) (no load) (60F, 30" Hg). Butterflies are 1.50", set to 0.001" warm. Engine displacement is 301.xx cubic inches. Custom curve on barrel valve. Main by-pass pill = .103, Dial-A-Jet pills = .100 - .140 to compensate for temp and pressure.

    An LM-1 exhaust gas analyzer is used to dial in the A/F mixtures.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012

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