Inline guys: 235 woes and questions

So I have a '53 chevy and just finished rebuilding and installing my 235 with 3 speed at the beginning of the summer. I like it, but theres many things I dont like. I knew going into it that it was a low pressure motor and that it was a noisy motor and trany and it wasnt going to be a real strong 55+ mph motor/trans combo. But it was the easiest choice at the time with no additional conversions. So I went ahead with the rebuild wanting to keep it period correct and to drive what they drove back in the day.

My original motor was sad, gutless and had a crap powerglide. I swapped in a 3 speed, installed a new clutch pack and custom fabbed a floor shift and reversed linkage. I can guess what youre thinking, "Well, what the hell dude? You knew what you were getting into before you rebuilt it!"

But I thought the fresh rebuilt motor would be alot snappier, but its almost like theres no difference. I took it to an excellent mechanic shop that specializes in classic car tune ups that my family has been going to for years. Had him adjust the carb, tweek the timing and anything else he could find to make it run at its best performance. And even after all that, its not what I had hoped for. Its sluggish around town and it works hard at freeway speeds. Im not really enjoying the car much and its a total bummer.

After driving it over the summer, Ive often wondered why I just didnt rebuild a 250 for all the obvious upgrade reasons. The upgrade to a 250 seems like a no-brainer, so Im pondering the thought of doing the full drivetrain swap to a 250 or 292.

I know theres some die-hard 235 fans out there and Im curious what your thoughts are on this. Does the 235's lack of performance just grow on you over time and you learned to deal with it? Did you swap in a different transmission? If so, were you able to use the original brake resevor pedal mount or did you have to fab up a different clutch pedal mount? How much change did you notice in all around driveability with a different trany?

Id hate to give up on this little motor after only having it in for such a short time and after so much time (and money!) spent on getting this far. Im not sure what I should do to start having fun driving it again. Can a different trany make this stock 235 come alive?

Does a 2bbl intake really wake up the motor like they claim? Maybe a 2bbl intake and a different trany combo is the winning ticket? Id like to hear what you 235 guys have done to make yours a fun driver with todays traffic and speed limits. Thanks!

 

We have an I6 in the 53 chevy belair, its whatever was original in that car. For the age and being original pretty much, its pretty powerful.... its a 3spd manual too

no idea of gear ratio

 

You might consider swapping in an S-10 5 speed. I have a '54 235 in my modified, used a '57 pickup bellhousing, and it bolted up. I built the car this way, so I don't know what the 3 speed would be like, but after having 5 gears, I wouldn't ever consider anything else.

 

Fentons, two carbs, and a four speed saginaw will do wonders.

 

If your 53 car was a powerglide the engine should be a full pressure engine. Also 53 glide cars were geared with the 3:55 ratio "Highway" gears vs the 4:10's in everything else. You can run 65 mph with the 3:55's all day long. I'm assuming you retained the torque tube rear end and installed a like 3-speed stick.

235's can be built to deliever and be very fun to drive! Patrick's Antique Cars and Trucks, Chev's of the 40's, and Stovebolt engine Co. are excellent sources for stock, speed parts, tech help, adapters and stuff including the clutch pedal adapter.They are all on the web.

Swapping a later model 230/250/292 I6 is abit more advanced than it looks as the engine is longer you have to make room. Good plus is the engine will accept any GM auto or bellhousing for manual trans. without adapters. Power from these engines is very good stock and can be built to produce over 400 hp!

Any transmission upgrade will eliminate the stock torque tube rear-end as they will be open driveline. 10 bolt rearends from 70's Nova and 7.5/8.6 Lincolin Mark VII from the 80's are the proper width for you 53 chevy. Saginaw 3 and 4 spds from GM, BW T-5 5spd will adapt to the 235 bellhousing.

We have a 47 Chevy Fleetmaster with a 235 1st series. It is built to drive. The engine has dual carbs, Fenton headers, Mallory electronic distributor, Howard's M4F cam and a few other goodies and dyno'd 200 hp! Trans is a BW T-5 5spd from a S-10 Chevy truck, and a 10 bolt 74 Nova rear geared to 3:55. This thing is a gas to drive! It sounds so good and runs all day at 75 with the air conditioning on! Even thrilled a couple of V8s!

I hope this helps you

 

The 261 and three-speed in my Canadian Pontiac keeps up with traffic just fine and has no problems on the highway. It's a hydraulic lifter engine similar to your powerslde.

I know you said it's been to a shop that specializes in these sort of cars but it can't hurt to give it a good going-over yourself.

Also, noisy?

If it's a hydraulic lifter engine, it should be quiet. Mine is very quiet and very smooth. When I got it, someone had set the valves like a solid lifter engine and it clattered like crazy, power was down too.

Shawn

Maybe the vac advance is stuffed or the centrifugal is hanging up.

 

I put a 261 in my '40 with an offy intake and dual carbs. I swapped the trans with an 4 cylinder S-10 T-5 and the rear end in 4.11's with h-78's tires. It has plenty of power and runs 70mph no problem. I am sure my truck is lighter than you car, but still, it is fun to drive.

I helped put a stock powerglide 235 with a S-10 T-5 in a stock 58 chevy truck. It seems maybe a bit down on power for my liking, but he is only running a single carb. Dual carbs do help.

I've swapped several torque tube rear ends in 49-54 chevy cars. The locating pins are offset on the mounting pads and their location needs to be duplicated on the new rear end. It's a pretty easy swap.

 

This is exactly my setup. And I'm pulling a 2.93 rear gear. 3.50 1st sag. The car is a great cruiser, went 17.3 and 80 mph at the drags. And gets 24 MPG. But it is not a dog and easily holds cruising speed and will pass the POS, OT econo cars on the rolling hills of PA. .

I have higher compression and a Howards cam. But before that engine went in the tired old stocker with 80 lbs compression and a blue cloud behind it really woke up with the fentons and an HEI ignition and a single 2 bbl.

 

Make it breath better, a 2x1 bbl carbs, headers, and a T-5 trans. That is a winning combo.

 

I have a '57 235 with single Rochester BC carb In my T-bucket. Also, the engine is paired to a '57 Powerglidge. I know performance is lackluster compared to other engines/but what I like is the uniqueness of the 235, particularly in a bucket. Additionally, there's not many '53 Chevys, especially with a 235 that we see at cruise-ins or shows. So, I'd be real happy to own one like yours. If you're looking to improve performance check out Langdon's Stovebolt Engine Co. at www.stoveboltengineco.com.

 

6 bangers aint my cup of tea,so to speak.but a friend of mine many moons ago took a 235 and built it and put it in a fed. i have no idea what he did to it but it would pull the wheels up in the air and shut down a few big v8s.i do remember he said it was runnin almost 12 to 1. it also helps that he was a machinist and run his own hotrod shop.i know it was a 235 because imthe one who told him to get this peice of shit out of my shop floor and he could have it.after that i always wanted to build a street version of what he built.and go v8 hunting myself. lol. id keep it and do alot of research on what can be done to it to make it quick and deadly(to unsuspecting v8s).

 

Don't give up yet. The little six can be pretty "snappy". You got some good advice above. It may just be a matter of getting your 235 set up right and having the right gears to go with it. I love V8s but I think the early OHV sixes will make your '53 more interesting.

Since it's a Powerglide motor I'm assuming it has hydraulic lifters? If so, it shouldn't be noisy. There may something wrong there.

Like I said, don't give up yet.

 

I rebuilt my 52 235 and trans,then went to a 235 1962 engine,still a dog.
The hell with period correct,cut the frontend off and put a Camaro front clip with a 350 chevy and 350 trans.
The newer 4.3 would be a good choice with a carb.
Be with it and stop copying to old guys.

 

Make sure to find a streetrod website to post about it on.

 

I have a 235 in my 51 Fleetline. When I bought the car I was told the motor was rebuilt. It has a 2 speed Glide behind it. I don't know how long ago the rebuild was, and what was done to it.
But it will do 70 MPH all day and not use a drop of oil.
It doesnt get up to speed fast. But once it gets up there it is smooth!!

 

Your particular issue is no different than a flattie, 3-speed and t-tube. Sure we can hop up the engine and make 'em quicker that way but everything works "in concert" with everything else: engine, tranny, rear gear, tire combo.

Although not entirely traditional, putting a 5-speed behind a flattie positively wakes 'em up and I think it would be the same for your 235. You can drive at speed, for long distances, and at lower RPMS for longer and cooler engine life. Coupled with gearing your "taller" tire rear to a 3:50 or a shorter tire 3:30 geared or so rear (and there are formulas to check how this all will work out for you so you work out the correct combo you need) will go a long way to giving your 235 engine "new life" and make your car an excellent highway cruiser.

My avatar is a more-or-less stock 59AB flattie, 5-speed (.8 5th gear) w/open drive 3:54 banjo rear and tall 30" tires - 2500 RPM @ 75MPH, about 18-20 mpg (new engine right now so I might be even better than that). My 40 Ford std coupe has a hopped up French block with cam, 4" crank, 2-deuces, 5-speed (.72 5th gear), 3:50 8" rear, 235/75-R15 rear tire and I again about 75 mph @ 2500 with 18-20 mpg. BTW, Bubba's Ignition rebuilt both my crab and top-mount flattie distributors in electronic formats - big, big difference over anything I could have done.

 

everyone talks about having the right trans and gear ratio for the 235. The thing is, is that the stock trans and rearend are the "right" ones for the 235. You have to remember that the 216/235 wasn't designed for speed but reliability. Ditto on the car itself. Want speed, drop in a V8.

 

I guess that it depends on what you're looking for out of it---maybe more than it can deliver. My first '53 ended up with a '58 235 with stock internals and a McGurk dual intake with BXOV-2 carbs, a vintage Mallory dual point, a '53-4 Corvette exhaust manifold hooked to 2 inch duals with 36 inch Walker glasspacks, and stock 3 speed and 3.70 gears. It gave good account of itself on the road; I ran it at a constant 70 mph all the way to Carlisle (225 miles one way) and back and got 20mpg out of it on the trip. It would climb any hill on Route 81 at that speed. The combination of more airflow on both the intake and exhaust end of it and the Mallory's quicker advance curve chopped several seconds from its 0-60 time. That being said, it was never going to come out on top in acceleration contests against OHV V8s, but I never expected it to do that. I just took something and made it noticeably better than it was when I got it. An all out, barely streetable 235 might get you 185 real horsepower---about the same as a stock powerpack 283.

 

If you realy want it period correct and realy unheard in the day.
Get you a BIG GMC 6 inline there are all sizes up to 300 cubes.There is a guy up here with a 40 chevy GMC 300 and has 4 carbs.Now thats period correct.They have same bolt pattern up to maybe 1962.But keeping up with the times a 4.3 v6 with carb would be nice real duals,Just keep the hood closed.Got IT.

 

Thanks for all the replies, suggestions, links and ideas!

To answer some questions:
The car was an original powerglide, so it has the 3.55's in it. I drove it with the powerglide until one day it puked all over the garage after slipping in 1st and 2nd. After looking into how much it would cost to rebuild it, I opted to convert to 3speed, something I could rebuild myself.

The original motor was said to be rebuilt a few years prior. Turns out it is a 1959 block. It was not rebuilt, but maybe freshened up with a few new parts like valve springs and such.

When I pulled the AT bellhousing off the back of the motor, rusty water came streaming out. Turns out there was a freeze plug behind the bellhousing (Great design). When I pulled it out to replace it a bunch of bloated pale oily leaves and pine needles came pouring out.

Turns out they left it outside with the head off. I got as much off it out as I could flushing it several times and eventually the main bearings spun, due to plugged oil passage ways. duh!

After talking with the machinist he filled me in on the hydraulic lifters available for these motors. Like everyone knows, they were solid up to 54 unless you had a 53 PG. So mines a 59, it should be hydraulic right? The lifter oil passage ways are drilled for hydraulic. He said that the lifters were an option and that some cars came with solid while others had hydraulic. Each motor had different cams to work with different applications. He said most truck motors had the solid.

He also said that he couldnt get any hydraulic lifters for this motor that were any good. He said that if he were to rebuild a hydraulic 235, he would swap it to the solid lifters because all the lifters available for these motors either float or stick or collapse.

After hearing all that I stayed with solids and a matching cam. So, yes its noisy.

My 3 speed gear box is also noisy. Sounds like Im driving a dump truck sometimes with the low wavering moans. Its a total bitch that theres no major repair kits or overhaul options for these tranys. You just have to find the best one you can and hope it lasts. What a bummer, cause its kind of a fun little trany to work on, and Im sure thay were bullet proof new if treated right.

The vacuum advance works excellent. In fact my tune up guy said that both internal and vacuum are working fine, and its rare to see that on these motors. I swapped in electronic ignition to do away with points, so thats all cool.

I have headers on it already with dual shotgun pipes out the rear with gutted glasspacks.

As far as what Im looking to get out of the car:
I want to be able to drive it anywhere around town. Take it on freeways for long durations. Id like to go to 'The End of the World' cruise with my dad and drive it up to Billetproof. Both trips are about two hours of freeway each. Seems like a small request, but theres no way this cars doing that as is. Id like to drive on the street and keep up with traffic off of a light. Im not talkin hole shots. Im talkin, keep up with the guy beside me so that Im not getting passed two times before I make it to the crosswalk. (no joke)

Im not looking to bust out smoke shows or drag or pull down E.T.'s with the car. If I ever get back into muscle cars, Ill fullfill all that with a 455 '69 olds. Im not looking to go crazy fast on the freeway, just maybe not top out at 50. Maybe top out at 70 is more like it. If I could cruise 55-60 at 2000-2500rpm, Id be happy. And if I could accelerate and keep up with traffic, Id be happy.

And it sounds like what I had guessed is what youre all saying. Dual carbs, 4 or 5 speed, headers and gears are what make this motor work the best.

Thats just was I was looking for, a little reassurance and a positive push to start the drivetrian conversion. Guess Ill start looking for a Nova being parted out. But if it has a runnin 250 in it, dont think I wont be coming home with that too.... just in case! haha!

 

Why not spend the money on some proper, basic tune-up tools and parts, then make sure it's actually running 100% correct by doing it youself instead of trusting a shop to do it correctly.

If you start changing things and bolting on parts without doing the basics, there is the potential to make it run worse.

Something is wrong in your current setup, way wrong.

These cars could do 2+ hours on the freeway when they were new, if everything is right, it should still do it. Unless you're expecting 70mph all day long.

If it's a 59 block it'll have full pressure oil, aluminum pistons and decent compression. 4500 rpm would be the limit and with PG gears, you shouldn't be anywhere near that at 60mph.

Something in your tune has got to be wrong.

How's the wear on the rocker arms? If they're worn, your valve adjustment can be way out and you will be down on power a bit.

If you advance systems are working, how's the slop in the distributor shaft? If you're getting a lot of timing scatter it can cause touble too.

What kind of cam is in it? If it's really aggressive, it'll kill your low-end and the car will feel like a stone.

My 261 has nearly 30 cubes on your engine but it's in a much heavier car and it motivates around town and on the highway just fine. It's not a world beater, but it'll go when I want it to and won't get left behind.

Shawn

 

Here is my '53 splasher (non-power-glide) and it has a cam, roller rockers and a dual point ignition system and it keeps up with the other cars. But it is hooked up to a T-5. I've been happy for the past 6 years.
Normbc9

 

Why not spend the money on some proper, basic tune-up tools and parts, then make sure it's actually running 100% correct by doing it youself instead of trusting a shop to do it correctly.

I do have tools. And not just the basics. Ive been working on my own stuff for years. Ive only taken my stuff to shops a half dozen times in my life. I believe I can usually do things better, done my own way and know theyre done right like you said. My folks are car nuts (thats where I got the bug early in life) and suggested that I take it to this trusted guy to see if he could find anything. I figured what the hell, a fresh eye on it wont hurt. I even brought him a rebuilt distributor to have installed if he thought mine was out of spec. He said the timing was great but advanced it 2 deg., the carb was tuned right and that my distibutor was in great shape and working fine. The only thing he did was put on a heat line to the choke and test drove it after checking everything out.

If you start changing things and bolting on parts without doing the basics, there is the potential to make it run worse.

Something is wrong in your current setup, way wrong.

These cars could do 2+ hours on the freeway when they were new, if everything is right, it should still do it. Unless you're expecting 70mph all day long.

This is what Ive been thinking too. This car should be able to cruise at freeway speeds no problem. "See the USA in your Chevrolet"

If it's a 59 block it'll have full pressure oil, aluminum pistons and decent compression. 4500 rpm would be the limit and with PG gears, you shouldn't be anywhere near that at 60mph.

I have excellent even compression, oil pressure is well within spec and aluminum pistons. Im around 3000 rpm at 55 but it seems labored. I did go 60 for a while and that just didnt sound right.

Something in your tune has got to be wrong.

How's the wear on the rocker arms? If they're worn, your valve adjustment can be way out and you will be down on power a bit.

The rockers were in good shape, however, they did resurfaced them all during the rebuild.

If you advance systems are working, how's the slop in the distributor shaft? If you're getting a lot of timing scatter it can cause touble too.

What kind of cam is in it? If it's really aggressive, it'll kill your low-end and the car will feel like a stone.

Its not a crazy grind, its a stock cam.

My 261 has nearly 30 cubes on your engine but it's in a much heavier car and it motivates around town and on the highway just fine. It's not a world beater, but it'll go when I want it to and won't get left behind.

What kind of transmission do you have behind your motor? What car/truck is it in? Thanks a lot for your questions and suggestions!

Shawn

 

I agree. IMHO a vacuum gauge would go a long way in helping to diagnose your problem.

Larry

 

Sorry, I had assumed that you were taking it to a shop because you were unsure how to handle it yourself.

My car is a 1958 Canadian Pontiac, so basicly a 1958 Chevy. It's got a stock Canadian 261 with the stock three-speed and a stock rear end.

If everything is as good as you say, I'm stumped.

I almost wonder if something is up with the electronic ignition conversion. Maybe the built-in dwell is screwed up. I've seen this happen in cheap china-built HEI modules but I don't know if a pertronix would have the same issues.

Maybe try putting a good set of points in and see what happens.

Like Larry said, a vacuum gauge may be able to tell you what's going on with your valves and carburetor.

Shawn

 

Ok Shawn I hafta chime in, last year I replaced the bolwn 216 with a fully rebuilt 54 235. It has Fenton intake/header 2 rochester 1 bbls, 54 3 speed and torque tube going into the 3:55 gears out of a PG car...Its not a V8 but its snappy as hell and I can cruise the highways at 60-65 at just over 2300 rpm!!! yeah there are some days I would love to get my fat fingers on the new crate 572 and trash the world-but for a cruiser its perfect, plus the fact while lots of guys on here preach the old school ways-look to see how many actually run the old hopped up I6s in there cars. I have been to 2 Hunnert Car Pileups and Torquefest last year and I am one of maybe 4 or 5 cars with a hopped up detailed 6. just my .02

 

I am really pleased with the performance of my setup, but then again I am in the UK where 50ci motors are not uncommon in old cars!

Mine is a '54 block bored .080" and all balanced. 848 head, soilid lifters mid range cam from Patricks, dual carbs, Fenton headers, dual system with cherry bombs and a BWT5. Rear end is a 12 bolt with 3.73 gears. The only thing I plan to change is the rear gears - 4.11 would be better.

It goes much quicker than stock, it's loud and looks cool - that is hotrod enough for me!

Check out the build thread in my signature below. There are a couple of video clips in there.

 

If you have the 3.55 PG gears the engine is about 2500 rpm at 60 mph with normal sized rear tires.
The valve noise on a good solid lifter 235 is a vintage mechanical sound,not the clatter wheels of destruction
Stock old cars are slow,be it a 53 Chevy,Ford or Mopar.But your set up should cruise along at 60mph with no problem even on moderate grades.
Your description sounds like you have one sick engine.........

 

Get a vacuum gauge to see how much vacuum you have at idle. It's an odd chance, but could be the cam is retarded - the punch marks on the cam and crank gears wasn't lined up, or the marks were off from the factory. Use the gauge to check fuel pump pressure also - NEW doesn't always mean its good!

Zero in the Octane Selector with the pointer on the flywheel ball with #1 at TDC. Then set the O.S. to 8 degrees. Play with the timing - it should pick up some. Go back to points and condenser and stock coil, play with the timing some more.

What specs did you use for valve lash? You could go maybe 3-4 thousands TIGHTER just for a test run - try the intakes first. How was the cam broke in and what oil and any additives (for extra ZDDP) used? Might want to pull a couple of lifters for a look-see at the faces and the cam - could be its gone flat. Cam timing on a stock cam is LAME at best, IMO. I could not recommend a rebuild without upgrading to a mild 3/4 grind, no bigger than 264 deg. advertised duration. IT REALLY WAKES THEM UP!!!

How about vacuum leaks - carb to intake, intake to head, vacuum hose to wipers and wiper motor. Use a UNLIT propane torch to check - idle will pick up when found.

Also try a cylinder balance test. Set the idle to 800 RPM, then pull one plug wire at a time - note the drop in rpm's. You shouldn't see more than a 50 rpm difference between cylinders on a fresh build.

Are the brakes dragging or the clutch slipping? Do you have FULL THROTTLE with the foot-feed matted? Is the choke opening as it warms up?

A couple of things I have to remind myself when troubleshooting:

1) CHECK THE EASYIST, CHEAPEST THINGS FIRST.
2) Make only ONE tuning change at a time.

Don't give up on the 235 - HANG IN THERE!!!

Good Luck, Tim

 

Shawn, thanks for the tips. I may put in some points to see if theres any difference.

But the car runs and drives fine. Maybe I made it sound as if there was a performance problem I was having. But the only performance problem I have is the lack of it, haha!

Theres no weird mystery stuff going on, I just would like a bit more Uumph from the motor. Sounds like guys that are getting that are installing a 2 carb set up and going with a 5 speeds and newer rear end.

Im going to check out some sights on the conversion and look around the net for parting out cars.

Dimebag, Sounds like your set up is just like mine minus the 2 carb set up. Yet youre pullin 60-65 at just over 2300 rpm. I dont get that If our set ups are the same, but you have 1 extra carb, how are your freeway runs less effort than mine? I mean, the extra carbs are for extra snap and the extra gears in a trany would be for better freeway drivin, but we both have the 3 speed. hummm

truckedup, I hear what your sayin, and I have to admit the sounds are pretty cool. I just didnt image them being so obvious. I mean, if the car new sounded like this, I would probably take it back. Thing is, Ive never driven one of these older solid lifter motors with a moaning 3 speed. What I need to do is have someone that has been around them a bunch to drive my car and let me know if its normal or not.

6bangertim, vacuum gauge sounds like a cool idea, Ill look into that. Dont remember the valve lash numbers right now. Motor and cam was broke in for 30 minutes ranging between 2000-2500rpm. Brad Penn break in oil (green oil) was used. Brad Penn has excessive amounts of zinc in their oil. Ive used Brad Penn 30 weight since then. Changed it right after break in, then at 50 mi, 100 mi, 500 mi and next will be 1000 mi. Thought about a hairier grind cam, but went with a stock grind so I cound experience what it was like in the day.

carb to intake good, intake to head good, no vacuum wipers.

Ill try the cylinder balance test for fun to see what I get.

I installed new brakes and new clutch pack and both are cool. Yes on the full throttle at the petal, and yes on the opening choke on warm up.

Great list of checks!! Im going to drive it on the freeway in the next couple days and write down the performance and stats. This way I can compair my finding to what everyone has said on here so far. And Ill be able to refer to them when I make changes or upgrades.

Thanks to everyone so far for your input and advice, its really appreciated!