Hey, A "Vixen'' file is used to locate low & high areas in your metalfinishing operation, but NEVER to file plastic filler! Once you've bumped up the low areas and dinged down the high areas of a dent, and can no longer feel any more areas that need work, that's the time to reach for the file. The file is used in a ''crosshatch pattern'' over the repair-left to right or right to left, whatever works for you, and you can either pull or push the file across the panel, again, what ever works for you. Start your file pass at the top of the repair, and with a 30-45 degree angle make sucessive passesdown the panel until there is no more repair area to file. The darker areas now on the filed areas will be low, the areas where the file cuts hardest will be high metal. Bump up the low areas and recheck your work by filing across your first file pass at a 30-45 degree angle. Bump up any lows & lower any high areas with a dinging hammer or slapper. When you've filed & crossfiled the repair, and no more damage can be seen or felt with the palm of your hand (probably the most important tool a metalman will need to master) you can cross grind the panel with a 50 or 60 grit closed disc and finish with an 80 grit disc. If you've done your job well, no bullshit spot putties or hy-build primers will be necessary to prep the panel for paint. " The real pity in america is that the people who really know how to run the country are all tending bar and cutting hair " - George Burns -
I searched and can't find this specific info so here goes the question. What Oxy/Acet torch and tips are you guys using to heat low areas for shinking? There are a guzzillion on the market and I don't know which is good for highs and lows on my door panels. I used a benzyne plumbers torch and it worked ok (I know this isn't the best way to go). The area was heated to a pinkish color and then a 3" wood mallet was used on dollie. Area was spritzed with a spray bottle after it got close. My doors are pretty thin on the 34. I got great advice from someone who I concider to be a real good metalworker but forgot to ask what specific torch/tips to use. Any help is appreciated!
Bringing this one back up. Been working some of the smaller dents out of my A over the last few weeks, but the next step has got me scratching my head a bit. In the right rear quarter and the back panel of my car I got about 20 bullet holes, from 1/4" up to almost 3/4". All of them look to be exit holes, as the metal is curled outward around each one. I have tried working this "curl" (sorry don't know what the tech. name for it is) out with a hammer and dolly, but the metal seems to be bent and/or stretched too far and I'm worried that if I smack the area hard enough to flatten them I'll either push in the whole area around them or push too much stretched metal back into the panel and warp it. Any suggestions on how to fix this without replacing both the panels? Thanks, Justin
bullet holes are a special animal and you will find that the damage they have caused, is far greater than just the hole and protrusion that is easy to see. If you have a bunch of them in a concentrated area, I suggest you start studying "panel replacement" or at the very least, "panel patching". And I'd rather you didn't ask me how I know so much about fixing bullet holes.
Carl Brunson has been painting for years and started doing some tech write-ups on "hotrodhotline". Check them out! Carl is an awesome painter and the articles are well written! Just something to check out... http://hotrodhotline.com/md/html/body___paint.php
I usually use the oxy/ace torch to heat then flatten the metal. After it is flat then it is oxy/ace welded and finished. If you have a small area with a lot of bullet holes, it might be easier to weld in a new piece.
Thanks a bunch guys, will try the torch tonight. Trying to avoid panel replacment if at all possible, right now I got a lot more time then money..
For small bullet holes where the stretch is just the one inch area around the hole, I'd just gently hammer them as flat as possible. Then weld the cracks with a TIG or oxy/acetaline torch. These weld methods will shrink the HAZ of the weld, removing some of the stretch caused by the bullet in the process. A MIG wil make a hard weld that will prevent you from working it smooth. If the welded area is still high, use shrinking techniques to get it down. My brother, who has a LOT more patience than me, likes to use a shrinking disk. But I like to heat the area in nickel-sized spots (probably the center of the bullet hole in your case) to an almost red-hot with a fine tip torch. Then while your helper quickly grabs the torch I put a flat dolly right behind the hot spot and tap the area down, all over about a two inch diameter circle including the shrink spot in the center, kinda slapping towards the center. Then quickly quench with a wet rag (lots of water). Your tapping will remove some of the excess metal (the hump) and the wet rag will remove more. When the metal has cooled enough to touch, check the shape and do any more light tapping needed to bring the shape to where it needs to be. Some spots may be low, and maybe some are still high. Maybe you will need to do it again in an adjacent spot. Or if it's too low now you can always do some on-dolly hammering and slightly stretch it out again. A couple things to be wary of using this shrinking method: The heat shrinking will cause the metal to be slightly more brittle in the HAZ. But still not as bad as if you had used a MIG welder. And also be carefull of the steam from the wet rag. Using lots of water will help prevent getting steam-burnt.
Another good thing to know is SMOOTH does not = STRAIGHT. We've all seen those wavy cars at shows, I'm sure. The body man or painter wet sanded things SMOOTH, but he didn't block them STRAIGHT. An earlier post, wisely, recommended using a straightedge to check for highs and lows. Good advice.
One thing I learned early on with body work is that preperation is the most inportant part to any job. You can spend big $$$$ on the best paint and equipment to apply it with...but if you did not spend time to make sure the panel you are working on has been prepped properly, is straight, and free of any contaminents....the finished product will still look like garbage! Talk to anyone who has a paint job that looks like glass...they will tell you about all the hours they spent preparing it before paint. When preparing the surface for paint...don't rush things...the results will be worth the extra time!
Alchemy, thank you for all the info man. I gotta brush up on my oxy/ace welding first but that sounds like the way to go. Thanks to everybody else for the input too, all stuff I'll keep in mind as I try to figure this shit out
. . Lots of good advice already. The strait edge tip is good, but learning to feel high/low spots is a critical skill. Some guys wear a thin cloth glove and say it helps. Something seldom mentioned is that your left hand may be more discriminating than your right hand. Left brain vs right brain.
Since this hasn't been brought up yet I thought I would toss my 2 cents into the ring when it comes to lead work. I am not going to post a long technical comment just a short one. I HATE lead substitutes. I do a lot of lead work and one day I decided to try the lead free stuff. Did it work, yes. Did I like it, NO!!!! It may be safer, and I mean may, but it is a pain in the ass to work with IMHO. When and if you ever decide to do any lead work just use the real deal, you will be thankful! Okay now bring on the flaming.
how cool would it be to have a "tech archive" or sorts, like a definitive body thread with the basics, metal fab, paint...etc, imagine how much it would cut down on useless threads wait is that a roll eyes smiley? i thought it was a "thinking" smiley...damn
Yep. I'm right handed, but I can feel bodywork better with my left hand. I used to use a thin cotton shirt over my hand, but have developed a better touch "naked" over the years.
I joined Metalmeet about 6 or so Years ago and learned a lot-I would recommend using it as a resource-I also bought Wray Shelin's DVD, which helped me a lot. Ron Covell offeres a very good DVD called "Basic Techniques for working with Steel", and I would recommend it highly. Wray Shelin offers Shrinking Discs on Ebay, and I would give serious thought to purchasing one-go to Harbor Freight, buy a 7" Grinder and you are set. Using a Torch is difficult because you are guessing where the stretch is, whereas the shrinking disc will go directly to the highs. Getting (or making) a Slapper would be at the top of my Tool List though-and remember, they say the best Welders are the best Grinders- Learning to glide your hand over metal to feel the highs and lows takes time, but when you have it mastered you can feel a lot-some people use a paper towel for better feel, I can now feel it even through gloves! Understanding how to work a dent isn't really hard, but there is a technique. As for a vixen file, unless you are really going to metal finish you don't need it-most guys use enough Bondo that you may not need them. Here is Wrays ebay Store: http://stores.ebay.com/Pro-Shaper-Tools-and-Videos And, Ron Covell's DVD's: http://www.covell.biz/videos.htm Here is the Metalmeet site: http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/index.php
My .02... When installing patch panels, any welding process, be it O/A gas welding, arc, mig, or tig, is going to cause shrinking. Sheet metal, due to the limited thickness, is especially prone to this shrinking and the side effect of warpage.....no matter which process you use, gas, mig, or otherwise. Simply turning down the heat on a mig (to try and alleviate those issues) in most cases gives you a weld sitting on top of the metal with little to no penetration. A repair like this would be very susceptible to future damage from separation and/or cracking. With any sheet metal repair involving a long weld, you will be better served to first of all, insure a full penetration weld, and secondly, promote consistency in your methods. A joint fitment that is tight in spots and wide in others will require more weld filler (which means more heat) in the wider gaps, yielding more shrinking side effects for more warpage in those wider gap areas. You may not think panel fitment as a welding or bodywork issue, but when it comes to how much filler is required or how much metalshaping to fix the welding, it most certainly is. Welding in certain areas of sheet metal, specifically high crown vs. low crown, will tend to have different results in the way the panel reacts to the heat. Welding through a low crown panel will tend to shrink and further flatten out the panel, for an immediate loss of the shape. Welding in a high crown area (such as radius at the top of the quarter) still shrinks the area, but has a less noticeable effect on the shape of the panel. So in addition to consistency in our skills and methods, if more than one option is available, you need to look at the area being welded and choose the weld location that will yield the least amount of adverse effects based on panel location and how the panel will react to the heat. Regardless of which welding method you choose, like others have mentioned I'd suggest to eliminate some of the learning curve on scraps (same gauge thickness as what you're working on), and once you feel comfortable with consistent results, move on to the repair on your car. And finally, fixing the shrinking side effects (warpage) from welding involves stretching, normally using a hammer and dolly. So that last bit to look at when planning where to put your weld should address access from the back side for hammer /dolly work. Not all circumstances will provide this access, but you can minimize some of the problem side effects by planning ahead.
If you find a vo-tech school near you, their always taking on students, I wanted to paint cars so I enrolled in some classes, 30 years later, I'm pretty damn good, it's all technique and how you learn, just another notch in your belt
So I'm to the point where I have a lot of dents, dings and bullet holes worked out of it, and think I'm confident enough to start getting the body to the overall shape it needs to be (I know, kinda working in the wrong order). Maybe you guys could give me some pointers on how to get everything where its suppose to be. Should also add that when I got the car the subfloor had been hacked out and the 5" chop wasn't finished.. I also have the body sitting on a stock frame thats tacked to my redneck frame bench so I got something square and level to set everything up on. First issue: Car body is not square. Probably 'cause there is no structure in the floor or cowl area. Hard to see but the tape measure shows about 3/4 inch difference when measuring diagonally from the B-pillar to stamped holes in the very rear of the sub frame. Should I pull it straight with a ratchet strap and tack in some bracing to hold it until I can get a proper sub frame in?? Also, what kinda tolerances do you guys use when getting this shit square?? Second issue: The car is wider then its suppose to be in the cowl area. Body mount holes in the cowl area are about 1.5-2" too wide to line up with holes in the frame, and there is a gap around the gas tank. Think this is because the car had no gas tank and firewall, and the brace that runs between the A pillars that the back of the tank bolts to was cut out long ago. I have a spare cowl section (in pieces) from a truck and was thinking swapping pretty much everything over. But with the frontend so far out I'm not sure how to get the new parts where there suppose to be, so any tips would be very helpful.. Thinking I should start with the A pillar section, get it straight and square to the door opening and then build forward... Does anyone know what the door opening should measure('30 Tudor)? I'm assuming its suppose to be square?? Third issue: The roof. When the car was chopped the B-pillar braces were tossed from the chop line up, and the ones in the sail panel are pretty well fucked... I know the right side is wayyy outta shape, but the left doesn't look too bad... Problem is I don't really know what shape the roof is suppose to have... I plan to fill the roof with metal (caravan roof maybe). Thinking the best plan of attack would be to get the right side close, tack in bananas and filler panel, work everything to the correct shape and then measure and add bracing.. Any pointers or better ideas?? Think that'll be it for now, thanks for reading my short novel of a post. Any help would be appreciated, Justin
Step 1 is/was Get your perimeter measurements and panel alignment right first. Build all the inner strength structure first before any ding,dent,bullet hole,tear,rust repair. Having a body not square and true will possibly create stress in the panels.
Go to a good repair shop!! JMO _____________________________________ '' Real hot rods don't have fenders "
Yes, ratchet straps and come-alongs. Use some cheap EMT tube as temporary braces, and don't be afraid to cut them back out if you need to move something. On a really messed up car I'd probably be proud to get it within 1/4 inch of square. I'd say it's more important to have the panels look like they fit together (doors, gas tank, hood, etc.) than to know some interior measurement is spot-on. Get the bare body squared up, the subfloor welded in solid, and the doors gapped nicely before you mess with the roof.
I'm gonna second this. Ron does just about every example of what you're wanting to do in this one video. Holes, dent repair.. One word of warning though, don't watch his videos while relaxing comfortably; Covell's voice is like a Goddamn lullabye.
I use my left hand but I am left handed so its my dominant hand. I do beleive I can feel stuff with my left hand that I cant with my right. Thanks for mentioning this. I wondered. I dont always do lead work but when I do, I choose real lead. Haha
The Jalopy Journal
