check this out and chime in. I'm not taking sides but lets hear some feedback, info, whatever you got. http://www.artinfo.com/news/story/3...tor-of-lowbrow-arts-iconic-rat-fink-revealed/
When studying art, even lowbrow stuff, artists copy other artists. Goes with the territory. When I draw a car, it's a culmination of all other car artists I studied.
I've done my share of crazy drawings. My school supplies didn't get worn out on school work. I used up a lot of markers drawing on other kids cloth covered three-ring binders as well as my own. But I'd have no complaint if someone went through what Roth did to market my drawings even if I never saw a penny. Roth used to sleep under cars on bare ground marketing at events accross the country. Roth spent long hours in the garage building wild cars and campaigning them all over the country to help support his brand. Roth built the brand. Just doodling a rat is easy. I doodled all sorts of charachters while listening to boring teachers. Any kid with half an imagination can do that. Marketing year after year is a whole other ball of wax.
Don Martin did great stuff for MAD Magazine and Cartoons (I miss Cartoons) for years . He could at least have been an influence .
I guess I should have titled this thread something different, good points already made, but I recall the story of Roth doodling this up in some diner on a napkin, and I'm having a hard time letting that romanticised image go. Either way, I salute both parties hard work and creativity. Just wanted to see what other HAMB'rs thought of this.
I was the first to use the word "Hessian" when describing an 80's metal guy. I'm very bitter that my friend Michael has gotten credit.
HEARD IT BEFORE,, DON'T CARE,, every kid draw pictures, some NEVER STOP, they often become famous, if they never grow old. and keep on drawing.
It's right here in the text: With both principals dead, and no paper trail, the intellectual property dispute is framed anecdotally, If both parties are dead and all we have are stories from the other folks, it's simply speculation and nothing more. Also: Monté indisputably did artwork for Roth in 1963 — including the first finished Rat Fink There it is. He worked FOR Ed Roth, if he was being paid to do the work, the person paying for it would own the rights to it (i'm not a lawyer but this just makes sense). Shawn
It may be true, but in my world, Roth is the Rat Fink. On a side note, IF it is true, why would the parties involved wait so long to stake a claim? I'm thinking the first t-shirt would have been the basis of legal action.
was this brought up before? I appologize and should have done a search before posting. Rookie mistake.
This artinfo story has popped up at least twice in the seven months I have been here. I understand rumors about Don Martin and Ed Roth have been around longer than that.
R.Williams worked for Roth too, but i doubt he'll ever claim Roth stole his characters. Probably its just because that Montè dude never got famous that he had bitter feelings towards roth. Kida harsh to say but wouldnt be so strange in the real world. Bottomline is ....who cares, Roth will always be Ratfink, it doesnt matter slightly who had draw it 1st.
There's a difference between making a drawing on paper, and marketing it to the public. When marketed, copied, etc is when it becomes alive. That's what Roth did. That's why Roth is Rat Fink's real creator.
What's the first name that pops into your head when I say "you ain't nothing but a hound dog" I've got a pretty good idea it won't be "big mamma" Thornton. Paul
I also always likes Ed Roth art work and all the Ratfink stuff. When you look at the Stanley Mouse work from the early 60's there is no question in my mind where Ed Roth got his inspiration from. After Ed Roth saw Mouse doing tee shirts with monster images at those shows in Michigan he went back to Calif. and started the whole Rat Fink collection. Once you look at Mouse's work from the early 60's and then look at the Rat Fink stuff you will see what I mean. These guy's were all talented artists it's just the some were more talented then the others. Alton Kelly and Stanley Mouse were two of the very best ever!!!!!!!!!! Just look at all the stuff they did for the Gratefull Dead from posters to album covers for years. Mouse may have started off doing tee shirts but he realized there was a great deal more money doing other types of art work. Jimbo
It doesnt matter if Don "Monté" Montéverde came up with the rat fink. Ed Roth owned the rat fink...and still does. He is the father of the Rat Fink.
"... and subsequently felt bitter that Roth took the character to lucrative widespread recognition while his decal business ground to a halt, forcing Montéverde to return to his UPS route. " Yup, another sour grapes story...waaaaa. If this guy did draw it first he would have had automatic copyright ownership of it and Roth wouldn't have been able to use it. Being he did nothing about it all those years, one has to believe this is another urban legend story.
The story has been floating around for years but it is far from the first time that someone took and idea or concept and embellished on it and made it his own and took it to new heights.
Seems like we had a discussion about this about a year ago. Not to rain on anyones parade but a few years back a fella from Kansas claimed that Walt stole Mickey from him as well. Stuff like this comes up all the time. It doesn't really matter after the fact, if this guy who we now think is the originator of the rat fink truly is there would have been a law suite. I can guarantee it. Here is a little known fact about the rat fink, Mr Roth came up with the name and idea after a bad business deal with a fella here in KC. It seems that the fella took Mr Roth to the cleaners on some mechanical work and Mr Roth afterward said that he was a "Fink, a Rat Fink" then created his first rendering of the Rat Fink under that moniker. Does that mean that someone didn't scribble a grotesque rodent on a napkin at some point prior, well someone once said that there is no new thing under the sun. Mr Roth was intelligent enough to market the Fink. He was the one that made it fly and that is probably good enough for any of us.
I remember like it was yesterday I was just 15, watching Ed Roth, at the 1963 Auto show at the old convention center in Long Beach, CA. He was standing there in his tails and top hat, air brush in his hand, T-shirt on the stand, and he started drawing this 55 Olds, freehand, a smoke and flames, wheel standing Olds, I was spell bound watching him do his art....
JIMBO17 ,GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT MAN ,MOUSE WORKED FOR ROTH AT ONE TIME THEN WENT BACK TO HIS HOME TOWN AND STARTED MAKING MONSTER SHIRTS. THE VERY FIRST MONSTER SHIRT GUY THAT ANYBODY REMEMBERS FIRST WAS Von Dutch.......
Love Ed Roth, the image, the zany, mad scientist, whatever.....love Roth and G. Barris too. HATE that credit is wrongly attributed and maybe even claimed in many cases. With that said, what some of you felluhs are saying is, basically...the businessman, promoter, the guy in the shiny suit is the man who deserves the credit, NOT the creative source of the original art. Schitty system. True, IF you're on someone's clock (typically), the creation belongs to the name on the sign. Really makes an independent artist an advocate of intellectual property rights.
As the story said, with both principles deceased it is not likely to ever come to light, the true origins of Rat Fink but the story also said the Don Martin did the first finished RF while working for Roth. I would say that the property rights fall to the Roth side. The drawing assumably was done by Martin while designing stuff for Roth. But property rights aside, I think it can be said that both men were very talented and both made contributions to the car culture as a whole.
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