Art & Inspiration Drafting and Design - The work and tools

Yes it is, it is now AutoCad 2012, they got away from the other numbering system.

 

I have both, 2012 and Solidworks, day to day in our business I use acad 90% of the time. Might be the operator though.............................................

 

Some nice stuff,iT'S all fanzyer then my chowk on the shop floor

 

Really interesting reading in this thread. I've been drafting since high school (1983 and cad drafting was near non existent then). I'm now a urban designer/survey draftsmen and I've seen the changes in this field which have been huge, but come at a cost. Porknbeaner I think said it best when he said some are spatially challenged. I see more and more of the younger generation who cannot rough out designs, worksheets or layouts on paper with any semblance of scale or perspective which also seems to transfer across to cad with poorly laid out plans.

Sadly the skill of drafting by hand is really a thing of the past.

 

After an Apprenticeship in Prototype Sheet Metal (automotive) I moved into the Drawing office. I managed to get two years manual drafting working on fullsize vehicle drawings and the producing full dimensioned detail drawings from them. Kinda miss those days since there were no cubicles and stuff. - sounding like an old geezer now

It is a lost concept now in the auto industry having to draw stuff like that. I am guilty of diving into the CAD world 19 years ago and never looking back.

Found it easier to use CAD since I could "draw" and shape stuff easier in the 3D world.

Still have all my Vemco bows, pencils and squares somewhere in the back of the basement.

 

I started my Engineering career at North American working on the Apollo program. We used a sophisticated method of drawing called Axonimetric Design. Looks more proportional than Isometric. Over the years I progressed to CAD and even worked for the originator of CAD for a while. Went through the early days of solid modeling and rendering and have had some great learning experiences. Still have my old drafting machine stashed away somewhere.

 

Interesting thread that makes me think I should have spent a few hours outside of the auto shop in high school and taken some art and drafting classes.

 

"Straight" ACAD is passe now, for most industries. BIM (Building Information Modeling) is a further enhancement that is actually pretty awesome. Instead of drawing a pump or a whatever, you access a library of pre-drawn 3D blocks with all the information about the pump available (like HP, RPM, flow rate, etc.).

I worked on a project that used state of the art BIM, the client insisted on a "walk-thru" presentation so they could see what their building would look like before it was built. These presentations are real sexy and clients pay big bucks for them. Well, the designers did all that, but no one noticed what any old-time drafter would have -- the building structure included a cross-brace that went right across the building manager's big window!

CAD is a great tool, but it doesn't feel as good as a fresh ScumX!

 

Took beginning drafting in 1960 in high school.
Went into the Army in 1966 as a draftsman, no
training they took my word. Worked in military
intelligence for 4 years got out and went to work
for the electric power company as a draftsman,
finally retired after 38.5 years. I loved every
minute of it, I have no regrets. I loved it when we
graduated to cad. It just opened up my universe.
Sometimes when people were watching I actually
did company work. I also dabbled in car stuff. The
first thing I tried in Acad was a crankshaft for an
8 cylinder. Looked good. Later did the whole engine.
I was using electricity so it had to be okay as company
work. Right?.
Matt

 

Yep. They don't teach drafting anymore, just how to operate the software. No emphasis on line weights, sheet layout, dimensioning standards, etc.... at least not that I have seen. I'm a civil engineer, and I can remember the day when you could tell who drafted the plan by their own subtle style. They still matched general standards, but the lettering and other small things would give them away. Now its all generic, sterile, and a general lack of pride in the appearance. I still have my old rapidographs, curves, templates and triangles in my desk drawer... and I actually used my protractor the other day.

 

Been employed in the drafting arena since 92, and started in a office that used both the ink drafting as well as unigraphics, these days have primarily only use inventor(for the last 6 years), with a little bit of ACAD where required for pneumatic and hydraulic schematics.

Whilst I appreciate the skills that using a board forces into you, I think that the 'skill' of drafting hasn't changed, just the focus to embrace the importance to 'think' before starting.

I was always taught that in business, like welding, there's a time and place for each skill whether that be Tig, Mig,oxy etc, and one size does not fit all.

THe only common element is that you need to think first, and the principals of what you're endevouring to achieve need to be at the forefront, irregardless of the tool required.

As a left hander, using ink taught me very quickly to focus on getting it right, as its no fun fixing stupid errors. THese days my board is only used for art illustration, and sketching, but certainly a skill set that is all but missing from regular business.

Cheers,

Drewfus

 

Here’s old school: a few pix of Alex Tremulis doing what he did best. During WWII, Tremulis served in the “Buck Rogers” room at Wright Field. He could look at the basic engineering three-plane views and then illustrate the isometric and various other angled views of the subject. His brain just didn’t work like most people’s brains. He could immediately visualize the parts in his head, and then he had the talent to draw the parts he saw in his head to scale. He was so good at it that he was often flown to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com</st1:City>Washington <st1:State w:st="on">DC</st1:State></ST1, with his drafting supplies in hand, to help “sell” new aircraft and jet concepts to the top brass. His cutaway illustrations were incredible.

Oh, and he failed art in high school. But he could draw. At age 20, he designed the three 1934 Duesenberg J <ST1LaGrande Convertible/Coupes. And he could tell stories.
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37 years ago, Alex wrote about using computers to do styling (Tremulis on Tremulis, 1974): "Now, much of the styling is done by computer, but one thing is still true: You must program a computer. But it still takes a designer to give it the information. I think the old adage of “garbage in, garbage out” is what the computer really gives us. When it comes to three dimensions, there isn’t a computer in the world that could take a combination and extrapolate it. It would lose the absolute finesse that only a designer or excellent sculptor can interject into the design. A computer can only analyze. A computer operator once fed a question into the computer: "Where is God?" was the question. The computer started clicking and cinching around for a while, finally hesitated and then typed out “I am God!”
<O</O

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On his drafting table is a 1940 Packard concept along with a twin-engine fighter. The back wall (clockwise) has a 1940 Briggs/Chrysler Thunderbolt draft, a 1943 submarine chaser, a twin-fuselage bomber, and a 1939 rear-engined supercharged American Bantam.

<O</O
Here’s his 1951 Kaiser-Frazer “Turbodyne” with and without its outer skin. Some people are born with a gift. It may be able to be learned, but it sure helps a lot to come pre-wired.

 

I've loved this stuff all my life. When I was a kid my dad had actual "blue prints" rolled up in the basement. White lines on blue paper. I got them down and studied them and I was hooked. I took all three years in high school. By that time the lines were blue and the paper was white.

I went on to set up a department in our company to do coordinated shop drawings for steamfitters heating and cooling pipes. We prefabbed the pipes and fittings before taking them out to the job. You had to be able to think in 3D and then transfer it to paper. I think that is the real skill... being able to see it in your mind and rotate it around.

I still remember the joy that I felt when I got my own drafting set in high school. I was so proud. I still have it somewhere.

Arrow heads and lettering were always a challenge. I got pretty good but there were always the others that did prettier lettering. I was so jealous.

 

YES! That's what I was trying to remember. BIM. I've never used it so I can't really honestly criticize it, but I know that sometimes we get prints out in the field that just plain don't make sense and the detailer's explanation was he had to do it that way because of the BIM software.

It's hard to explain without looking at those prints specifically, but basically it just seemed to overcomplicate the situation when there was a much simpler way to get it done.

Mathius

 

I remember my old oak table with the drafting machine and green rubber top surface...made a great computer desk when I switched to CAD. I don't have it anymore, but I do still have several architect's and engineer's scales, compasses, templates, etc.

 

I think there is a different way of thinking, a shift from an artisan-using-tools mind-set to a hotel-guest-commanding-staff mind-set.

I've used AutoCAD in the architectural field for ages, since ACAD 8 was current. I've been working with blocks as long, though obviously without all the added information, and have been building my own libraries almost continually. But there again is a difference, between creating blocks for later re-use because certain components like door frames end up reverting to a few standard sizes on the one hand, and assembling a building from mass-produced off-the-shelf components on the other. In practice I find myself going to purpose-made stuff more and more, as there is little saving in the standard stuff above a very modest level of quality.

And that leads to a difference in the way people use blocks. To me it is usually a way to keep geometry for later use. I even use a swap block to transfer information from one drawing to another. I resent that AutoCAD's basic menu arrives with no mention of the WBLOCK function: one has to go and find it and write it into one's menu, as if Autodesk don't want you to use it. The kids these days use Windows's cut/paste to transfer information and think a block is something you need to be some sort of electronics wiz to create.

I'm finding a deterioration in the standard of CAD work since the days a CAD operator was likely to have had a grounding in draughting on the drawing board. Three things stand out in particular: firstly, there is a basic lack of accuracy. I generally work with my dist/properties/coords functions set to four decimals, and set out from a whole-millimetre Cartesian value, so if something isn't exactly on a multiple of 1mm it stands out immediately. When I see something other than *.0000 I know there is an error somewhere. When I open other people's work, more often than not nothing is accurate to four decimals. I don't know how they get it that way; it seems to me more work than generating geometry in whole units.

Secondly, text sizes are all wrong, sometimes too small to read but more often inappropriately large, and in too light a line. I think the people forget that the final product is a hard copy and not what they see on the screen. The same goes for text placed so that it is obscured by drawing elements. Positioning text in a complex drawing is a board-based discipline, especially if like me one likes to place text near its object and avoid thickets of leaders. That's also why changing scales is more than a one-button operation.

Thirdly, people are spoilt when it comes to file sizes. I can do a very complex, information-dense construction layout, with hatches, dimensions, and lots of annotations, and the file size will be about 500kB. The kids today do simple unrendered design layouts and the file sizes come out at 28MB. It's all the cutting and pasting that drags over a lot of formatting data that one cannot get rid of afterwards, even if one purges the A$*-blocks, and the habit of working with the entire job and its entire history in one drawing. Which is the current version? When I open drawings with what appears to be the same drawings repeated 52 times in random clusters all over the screen I want to shoot people ...

But this is how they are taught.

I've still got my board. I've never got a feel for draughting machines though I used them in my time. I've still got my 31-year-old parallel-rule set-up. And I still like my board at 45° or steeper, not practically flat. But I chucked out the technical pens long ago. I'd had enough of dried-up ink and broken or kinked filaments. A variety of fibre-tips suits my purposes far better.

I'm no good at sketching, really; never had that "loose" quality the good illustrators have, so I've learned to draught my visual/graphic/illustration stuff, setting out perspective with instruments and doing a lot of math along the way. I can say that my design drawings reflect practical reality better than those people's concept sketches, that I don't indulge in gratuitous shapery, in fact that designing not from shape/visual but from fabrication process/nature of material/etc. is a fundamentally different (and arguably better) way to approach things, but it still stems from an inability on my part.

But how's this for draughting? Done on the board:

 

Excellent points, and I can think of an example I saw the other day that was a direct reflection of your first two points. We had some roof penetrations where an HVAC duct line was running through the roof of the building. Fire dampers needed to be installed in the roof.

For those who don't know what they do, fire dampers (in this case spring activated since they were horizontal/mechanical) that are mechanical have a solder tag that holds a folding door opened. When a fire breaks out, the solder melts at a certain temperature, the doors drop, closing out smoke from that portion of the duct line. This is supposed to in theory isolate smoke to the area where the fire is.

We looked at the prints to layout the roof penetrations, and they gave us two measurements... the roof curb size, and the roof opening size. For 2/6 penetrations the detailer listed the sizes ON TOP OF EACH OTHER. They were literally printed one on top of the other rendering them both nearly unlegible.

On top of that, the roof opening size was 3 inches over the size of the dampers. Even with a sleeve, for a program capable of incredibly small tolerances, why would you want an inch and a half gap all the way around a penetration that's going to have concrete poured around it? Then you have to waste even more time and materials coming up with some insulation or spray foam to fill the gaps before concrete is poured. Since canvases are used at both ends and all the hangers are flexible, there's no need to have expansion for vibration, so why leave a gap?

Mathius

 

Traditional "Steampunk" ... I like it!
What else 'ya got?

 

WOW! This thread BLEW UP since I last looked at it over the weekend. Some really great stories here. Some excellent points, as well. Fantastic!

So what were some of the "cool tools" that you guys used that made your drafting experience quick and accurate??

I miss this stuff by the day. We're turning our extra bedroom into a "work room" at home. I think I'm going to think very seriously about the addition of a drafting table, again.

When I started this thread, I was working in both SolidWorks and AutoCAD at the same time, converting our 2D machine drawings to 3D. Been a long process just so I can make some minor changes to the product. But during that process iw when I started thinking about all this drafting stuff again. I miss it. And someone above said exactly what I was thinking... "I'm sick of the clean CAD drawings" (or something to that effect)

Oh well.... Back to converting 2D to 3D... UHG!

 

Question...

Those of you that use or have used drafting machines, are all the scales interchangeable for the most part? Can you mix makes, like a K&E arm with Vemco scales?

 

interesting topic...I didnt think it would get such a large response.

I am an industrial designer by trade and I still draft by hand pretty much every day. I design sports equipment, which is mostly cut and sew which means I'm making patterns all the time. I couldnt imagine not drafting by hand, and for what I do, it is actually faster to do it by hand. I have a decent collection of tools between my office and home. Here is a picture of what Im using on a daily basis, I also have an old Vemco drafting arm, though I rarely use it. The sweeps I made by hand, and my favorite tools out of that bunch is my french curves because they were my fathers when he took graphic design back in the early 70's. I have a newer set, but never touch them. I also have a selection of circle/elipse templates and some other random tools kicking around. I took solidworks all through college, but haven't touched it in years.

 

I never expected to see a thread of this subject on the Hamb, but I guess it is a traditional way things were done years ago.

I took every drafting course that was offered in high school as well as wood and metal shop. Those classes definitely shaped the direction of my adult life.

I made a living for a long time working as a draftsman. Mostly mapping, survey, piping layout, house plans, etc. Worked a full time drafting job and freelanced a couple others. Seeing the tools of the trade made me to go to my garage and see what I still have.

In mapping, we used ink on mylar, so I still have several sets of reservoir pens. I used mostly K&E and Koh-I-Noor





Still have my Bruning drafting machine.



Wish I had a nickel for every letter I did using a Leroy lettering outfit. Still got my ames lettering guide and erasing shield. I still use my lead holders on a daily basis.

Good thread.....brings back a lot of memories.

Drew

 

Short answer........Yes.

Drew

 

Great! Thank you! And nice Bruning. I just picked these up today...

 

Scootermad,
I guess the swapping of scales depends on the disipline. An archetural scale uses different units than say a civil or mechanical scale.

 

Sorry! I should have been more clear. Not arch vs. mechi. Just physical interchange between makes. The ones I just bought came with Vemcos, which seem to be common. Seems to be a few different styles of mounting, but wasn't sure if they would all interchange.

I need to get some scales for these. They came with a matched pair each, but not really a desirable pair. Either of them.

 

You were probably real clear I am just not paying close enough attention.

 

After being in the Construction Field all my life I keep on top of old school drafting from high school back in the 70's to Auto Cad now.
All the hard years of working being a project manager and reading blue prints , I am now drafting on Auto Cad LT and doing shop drawing submittals for a full service sheet metal Co.
It sure is better on my body that working in the cold and less stressfull than project managing!!!

The best thing it working on my 1929 Dodge coupe when it comes to making patterns,measuring and layout I know what I am doing by now at age 60 !!!!

And I still have an old wood drafting table for fun and drawing the old school way!!

 

I have been a machine designer for almost 30 years now and started on hte board. Still have all of my "stuff" and will break it out on occasion, especially when "designing / layout " brackets and stuff with paper . For me its easier to make the paper/posterboard part before making it out of steel . I am like alot of the guys in this thread, if I had a nickel for every letter I had to do by hand
and lay them out with the old Ames lettering guide I would be rich. But I use ProE Creo now with 3d modeling and it is actually kin of nice.
Nice to remember the old days though !!