ive been following this thread for a while,and i think you should take a really close look at the rotor, i have seen a rotor that was burnt thru in the middle and still show a weak spark,but not strong enough to fire the plugs under compression,if the rotor proves ok ,i would try two batterys hooked to deliver 24 volts to the starter,you can run a separate wire from ONE battery to the coil,and still run 24 volts to the starter,use caution!!,it will spin over quicker,but dont spin it for very long or it will fry the starter!!
24v ? The hamb is the best place to find people who think outside the box... Why won't this 24v idea work? Anybody else got any input? If a 6v starter can last forever on a 12v conversion, why would 24v hurt a 12v starter on just the first start-up of this Buick? i've had 24v generators apart and the wires are very fine, so will 24v from two 12v batts hurt that 12v starter because you now have mega Amps? I don't know. Ok, so two 12v batts hooked in series, but the center cable needs to be a real battery cable, not jumper cables. I know a jumper cable will not work as it is too long, too thin, and adds too much resistance. Next thing is to disconnect the rest of the cars electrical system. If that Buick is like a same age Olds, the cars body electrical feeds come off the horn relay, and then a cable runs down to the starter big post. (I assume that Buick has the solenoid mounted on the starter itself?) So, I would run the 24 to the big post on the solenoid. But I would engage the S terminal on the solenoid with 12v as well as 12v to the ignition coil. So, I would think you can tap the 12volts off of that new center battery cable in between the two batteries?? Why won't this work? If it does, then It's got to start. Once it starts and runs for just 5 minutes or less, it won't need the 24v anymore, it should restart really easy because the comp will be back up.
Don't know about you guys, but I've got all sorts of engines running and have always started by tipping a little gas down the carb. I keep doing this until the fuel has been pulled from the tank or an improvised supply. I've never used any spray easy start products, always just used a little fuel straight down the throat of the carb. For what it's worth, here's me starting the German flathead in my 40: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8aw_W566Dc The carb was next to useless and had to be swapped out after a while, and the ignition failed after about 5 miles on the road. But even with bad carb and dodgy dizzy, it still fired and ran. Someone mentioned the "kick" you can hear the first "kick" at 35 seconds in. Also at about the 1 minute mark I get a real belt off one of the plug leads, but was so wrapped up in what I was doing I virtually ignored it. At 2:25 you can hear the first time it starts to rev using the fuel from the accellerator pump jets, before that it was just going on what had been poured in. I don't think you will get it to go without operating the carb by hand. Just keep moving the linkage to try and find the sweet spot. Once warmed it will run better and better. Mart.
I don't know why but I love threads like this! I guess there's just something magical about waking up a beast that has been sleeping for so long. What a great feeling when it springs to life. You're getting lots of great advice. Keep at it and keep us posted. I'll be following this thread with great interest. I wish I was closer 'cause I'd love to help you out with this.
It can work. I have done it both ways: 12 volts on a 6 volt starter, and 24 volts on a 12 volt starter. The issue is that you need really good technique. It is easy to fry something - or yourself - you can stick weld with two 12v batteries in series. If his starter is marginal, this might kill it for good. It might also get the old motor spinning fast enough to catch. Edit: You can even do this using the battery from another car, as if you were going to do a regular boost. The dead car's battery goes to ground on the dead car. The positive on the dead car's battery goes to the bumper/ground of the jumper car by a jumper cable. The positive of the jumper car's battery goes by jumper cable to the starter solenoid of the dead car. This is if both cars are negative ground. If one or both are positive ground, then adjust the connections accordingly. The (typical) higher resistance of the jumper cables works a bit to your advantage by providing a slight voltage drop across the entire shebang. The dead car's motor will still spin like crazy.
With all your replacing parts,have to had at lease a back fire. If No,Check the wire from dist that hooks to coil if that terminal is held on by few wires could be lossing power to the points. Sometimes a little yank it will pull off.That also goes for the wires to and from resister,and your jumper wire to coil for power. Little gas down carb should fire,If spark is NOT good don,t keep cranking till its good.
I have ran all the plugs in my Toyota one at a time and a few made it run rough for a bit but then it smoothed out so now all the plugs should be good now. I sprayed a bit of PB down each cylinder and turned it over for a bit with the plugs out. I also ran fresh gas from a funnel to the carb and let the battery charge over night. I tried giving it a few pumps from the accel pump then starting it; no go. I tried pouring a bit of gas down the carb; it smoked out the breathers and sped up a few times but no real good kicks. I will check the rotor and make sure its good. I will try jumping it again tomorrow as I have to leave for work soon. Thanks, Ryland
If it sped up a bit, that, at least is a step in the right direction. Everything you have done is along the right track. I think with all you have done so far, it's time to do a compression test. If the numbers are real low you might need to reconsider your plans.
Flatheadhero posted a link to this page on a similar thread (flathead related) http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_startup.htm Lots of good info there, insert the Buick info for the flathead stuff (firing order etc) and it will serve you well. Mart.
One thing is bugging me. Are you ever seeing (or smelling) anything out the exhaust pipe? It is far downstream of a no-start, but there should be the hint of something to go along with the smoke coming out the breathers.
a plugged exhaust is a real possibality on a car that has set for a long time take it loose at the manifolds and see if it starts! one winter when i was still twisting wrenches i had a car that had been used for short trips and the muffler actually froze full of ice!!,took the exhaust loose after two days of hair pulling and it fired right up!!!!!
The exhaust should be clear. All it is is 2ft long straight pipes straight out the bottom so I don't singe up my wiring if it will ever fire up. I have not specifically noticed the smoke coming out of the pipes but they are hard to see while cranking the engine. When I try and start it today I will have a camera on the ground by the exhaust so I can see what is going on down there. I know the passengers side is free as I saw flame out it once during a backfire when I turned the cap 180*. Im almost ready for anther attempt with 24V. Ryland
No go on the 24V. I hooked it up as plym49 suggested, the cables got real hot but I didn't notice the starter spinning much faster. Time for a starter re-build? Ryland
I tried running the ignition system on a separate battery from the cranking system and I am still getting a fat orange spark. Is the smoke coming out indicative that the plugs are firing under compression? To me I don't see how it couldn't be but what do I know about cars. Thanks, Ryland
Any chance of a HAMB guy or a friend near you, that knows a bit more than you, to make a trip over to lend a hand. Funny, In 1964 or 5, I built a 401 Nailhead for my '27 bucket ( Eugene, Or ), Mallory dual / Crower cam / dual quad. I went through a similar thing. I couldn't get that bitch to run for weeks and suddenly it fired. Never did find out why or what !!
The one guy I know that knows anything about cars (a HAMB'er) has already looked at it and says my guess is as good as his. There is a mechanic in town that works on my sisters 74 Beetle that I may hire to come take a look at it. I think I will make another thread asking if anyone can drop by. Thanks, Ryland
You keep saying not good spark. story time 1949 olds 303 v8 stored 33 years.tryed all you did 12 volt coil battery for ign batt for starter.Wouldn,t start for weeks.I went up the street and got and old 1940studbaker condenser and started to get some popping now it new i had spark and was just a matter of turn dist.AS is said take dist out and check it out.And if you aren,t going to junk the car get a new battery,and have starter fixed.
Very possible on the starter. I had a 63 belvidere with a 383. At one time, it was hell to start and I discovered by chance that if I just bumped it quick and let off the key , it had fire !! Starter was drawing all the power.
When you tried the 24v. did you completely disconnect the Buick's battery hot cable first? If not you had a short circuit and that is why the wires got hot. Did it crank and the wires got hot? Or the wires got hot with no crank? Again, for 24v the hookup is as follows: 1. Buick battery connects to the frame of the Buick (negative terminal). 2. Buick hot cable (positive) gets disconnected. 3. Jumper cable from the Buick battery hot (positive) terminal to the negative terminal of the battery in the car giving the boost. 4. Jumper cable from the boost car's hot battery terminal (positive). The other end of this jumper goes to the starter solenoid -- to the terminal where the Buick's positive battery terminal would normally connect. 5. Use a test lead to grab 12 volts to run your coil. This can come from the positive terminal of the Buick battery. You can also connect a wire here to hot wire the starter solenoid. You do not want the 24v going through your car's harness. If you connect like this, with the Buick starter not engaged, there is no current flowing so no cable should get hot. Once you start to crank, the cables might get hot, especially if the battery cables are on the wimpy side. At this point I believe that your problems are bad connections (wimpy cables) and not enough cranking juice from the Buick battery. And maybe a slim shady starter. It might be worth it to pull it and look at the brushes.
I would be real wary of paying someone as more often than not they will just throw $$$ at it. There is no secret black box on your car that no one except a 'professional mechanic' would know about. Hang in there as you will get it.
Thanks guys; I will give it another go tomorrow. George/Maine: I am reading what you are writing and really do appreciate it. I am a scaredy cat and I am a little reluctant to remove the distributor, I will if I can't get it to go soon. Thanks, Ryland
Ryland, I have been following your progress off and on, but had never looked at your video until tonight. After watching it I have a question, have you got the throttle blocked open to at least a third to half throttle so it can get some air along with that ether? If I was in your shoes and felt that I had the ignition 100 percent right, I would go back to square one, pull all the plugs, tie the throttle wide open, and then check compression on each cylinder and record your readings. Then squirt a teaspoon or so of oil into each cylinder, screw the old plugs back in and roll it over a few times, then pull them and check compression again, and note any differences. Then if you have adequate compression on all cylinders, screw a new set of plugs in and give it a whirl. Others might, but I just think you are asking for trouble messing around with 24 volts, if you need some extra whizz boost it with your Toyota running and a good set of cables. Another thing that bears looking at, if you can find anyone with some old test equipment is the point dwell. You might even find an old dwell meter at a pawn shop for cheap. Seeing a steady dwell reading in the right range, will tell you that you don't have excessive wear in the distributor causing a problem. The reason I suggested new plugs, is I have seen a lot of them ruined under flood conditions, and just because your late model truck with high energy ignition will fire them, does not mean your old point type ignition will.
I tried the 24V again and this time the cables did not get as hot but the engine didn't seem to turn much faster than it does with just 12V. I will pull the starter and see how it looks. Just out of curiosity; how difficult would it be to modify a late model starter to fit on my Buick. Has anyone ever tried this? I will also buy a compression tester and carefully check all the cylinders and buy a new set of plugs. EDIT: Also, I never got a clear answer on this; does the smoke coming out prove that the plugs are firing under compression? Thanks, Ryland
Well, as far as I know you need fuel, spark and compression to get an explosion. So if you have smoke, you must have had an explosion (ignition) so you must have had compression. Problem is, the explosion wasn't strong enough to get the engine round to the next explosion, so it isn't quite running yet. I think the compression test will tell us what needs to happen next. Mart.
I'll throw my 2 cents in here. When I first bought my 56 Buick it was still wired for the gas pedal starter. Does your wagon have an ignition key? I know, stupid question but read on a little further. With the old gas pedal starter wiring you still need to have the key in the 'ON' location (middle spot on the key cylinder). If the key is on the 'LOCK' or the 'OFF' position with the original starter/ignition wiring the car will absolutely not start! I pulled my friggin hair out for 5 days trying to figure this out. My Buick would do the same damn thing yours is doing until I wired the coil to a toggle switch and used a push button in conjunction with the key operation. If you'd like I can draw you up a sketch of how I wired mine. I feel your pain and I think you may be overlooking the obvious here. You can PM me or email me if you need more help.
Compression test will be very misleading before you get it to run. Just a finger in the hole to judge if it's really weak or enough to fire. Spend the money on new plugs, and pull the starter apart, something is wrong there. Either the armature is dragging on the field coils which are bolted to the case, or the commutator could be dirty/oily. You won't be able to test the armature for shorts without the "growler" testing fixture, but at least check what you can.
Holy crap! That's exactly right. I remember that now from my '55. I hope it's that simple. I've been watching this thread every day waiting for this Buick to fire up.
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