Technical Hot 409s: Who has them or has built them in the past?

Search didn't return the results I was looking for, so I created a new thread.

First, a little background:
I've tried to make my 55 into something you might have seen prowling the streets and hangouts in the early to mid 60's (with certain alterations made for reliability, safety and using what I could afford), which I feel I have achieved more or less. Sure, you can pick at this and pick at that as not being period correct, but I think I hit the overall look from talking to my family and the guys who were there as it happened. I patterned my car after the street racer 55 my Uncle owned during this time period, with input from him and my dad.

For the past several years, I have been dreaming of a stout 409 between the fenders of my 55. I've had a passion for these engines, but they're a bit of a mystery to me. I've seen the aftermarket come alive the past few years with 409 parts, with Edelbrock leading the charge, and it's got me all hot and bothered.
My dream is of a built 409 with a roots style blower. How feasible is this?
If I were to go all motor, what kind of RPM can these things handle? I have heard the original bottom ends didn't like to rev, but with the new parts available, higher rpm is possible.
I read an article (I think it was in Hot Rod a few years ago) about them building a N/A 550hp 409 that was said to be dead nuts reliable, but the price scared me a little at $15k. If I recall correctly, this was 100% brand new parts, block included.
Now, say I could score a 409 long block for a decent price (not terribly likely, I know), what can I expect out of a simple heads/cam swap with supporting mods?
I am aware of the 348-turned-409 trick, but how reliable is this? Will it handle the same power and rpm a real 409 will?
As it sits, my 55 is a mid 12 second car with SBC, a TH350 and 3.55 Posi rear. Not setting the world on fire, but it's fun and fast enough for now on the stock style steering and suspension. Obviously, I don't want to do all this work and spend all this money to go slower. Horsepower is horsepower, so I figure the 320-330+ rwhp required to move this car into the mid 12's with a 409 shouldn't be too difficult. Does this seem accurate?

If your answer is "just do a big block", thanks but no thanks. I know I could do this cheaper and faster with a traditional big block, but that's not why I want to do it.

Any constructive input is greatly appreciated.

 

I've built a couple for customers, got another numbers matching 1963 HP coming in next week.
Link to a build thread.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215715
Larry T

 

I never built a 409 or even rebuilt a 409. I did have a factory 409, 4sp Bisquit in the '70s that was a lot of fun to drive. It was a hand full on the bias wide ovals that I was running.

There was a down side to it that I probably shouldn't mention. My bro inlaw at the time had a 340 dart Sport . Single 4 auto that would flat give it a run for the money.

I don't know about the new head but with factory original heads they would get hot and the power would start dropping off. That is why when you saw the serious racers with them in the early to mid '60s after a pass they would have a water hose hooked to them cooling them off. Later into the '70s the fellas that raced them had a trick where they would drill and tap into the high spots in the water jackets and run a 1/8" line to the goose neck to over come the problem.

They are not a natural revver but they don't have to be you just gear them to run in the proper RPM range.

But that's just the nature of the beast, they all have a trade off.

That said if I had the cash I would stuff one in an early '60s street brawler in a heart beat. Even with a stock 2x4 motor you should have any trouble getting you little chebby into the 12s or maybe even high 11s.

 

With a 3.50 stroke they ought to rev to the moon, but the heavy stock pistons kept them from doing it. Now with light weight aftermarket pistons (Ross) they do a little better.
Larry T

 

Just buttoned up my first 409 engine. It's a 64 truck engine. Cool thing about the truck heads is the ability to use the 348 tri power intake manifolds. Being a 409 newb on a budget this thread was invaluable to my build....

http://www.348-409.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-hop-up-a-409-truck-engine.8628/

I could have built more power for the money I spent with a bbc but it would not have been near as cool in my opinion. Have fun! Glen

 

They have to be one of the heaviest stock pistons ever, hey Larry, is that your pan or a customer?

 

Sometimes you give a up a little to get what you are after. I personally really like the W motors. I have only owned 2 in my lifetime, the 409 I mentioned earlier and a 3x2 348 in a '59 Biscaine. I loved them both, neither was going to break a world recored at least not the way that they were but they were great motors. Plenty of grunt and when you popped the hood those wiggly rocker covers just struck awe into any one who looked at them.

Life is a trade off no matter what you do. Every path has its pros and its cons.

Larry thanks for the unfo. Like I said never had one open, I always figured lighten the crank was going to be the solution.

 

Larry T/409deuce: Awesome builds!! Thanks for the links!! I'm definitely going either dual quad or trips, whether I go blown or n/a.
PNB: Thanks for the info on the heat issue. I've seen aluminum heads for the 409, but depending on my budget, I might have to use some cleaned up stockers. Hopefully with the modern rotating assemblies, I can get some revs out of one.

 

Not many street racers in the early 60's ran blowers. There were a few, but if you want to capture a more typical I'd go with a 2X4 409 with a 4 speed. There will always be a faster car out there, so build something that makes you happy to look at and will put a smile on your face.

 

Mr Sinister,
If you go stock heads get ahold of me. I'll walk you though the cooling tubes. Then you can take pics and do a tech. You'll be famouse as long as you don't tell anyone I was involved but if you do tell you'll at least be infamouse.

I'd say go for the W motor in the five-five. If you can swing it you will have a genuine '60s street brawler. It will be a lot of fun to drive even if you just go stock rebuild.

 

In 1969 I was driving a short track 55 chevy on pavement with a 409 and a high rise single 4 barrel. The car ran well but was a little slow building rpm when coming off the corners. In an attempt to get more rpms I started running it in 3rd gear in a muncie 4 speed. This helped quite a bit
until it broke the crank and most every moving part in the motor at about
5500 rpm? This instantly locked up the drive train and sent the car backwards into a large and deep puddle right next to the start finish line.
Off course it now was an oil slick puddle as well! When the wrecker guys came to pull it out they took one look at the 18 inch deep oil and mud
mess the car sat in and pulled their cable to the edge and went no further. I had to climb out and get on my hands and knees to reach under the slick and hook it up. All off this to the amusement of the Sunday afternoon crowd of which I was mostly acquainted with. It is a good thing 19 year olds are no easily embarrassed! Any way it was great fun and I thought about it when you mentioned a 55 Chevy and a 409.

 

I should also mention that this engine will need to run on pump gas. Are my numbers still achievable?

 

Oh yeah, I gave up on chasing the fast guys years ago.
Thanks for the input on the blower!!

 

Tha just depends on how far you are willing to go. You should be able to get it in the 9-10:1 compression range and run fine on premium. Lots of engines make plenty of grunt in that compression range. Even at 350-400 hp with 435-450 pound feet or so you will have all the car you ever needed.

What does a 55 chebby weigh? 3K to 3200? Am I close?

Unless you go the pro street route you are going to have trouble hooking up on street tires anyway.

 

Definitely!!
It might not happen any time soon, but hopefully it will happen. I'm past the street racing days, but I do like to get thrown back in my seat and fry the baloneys from time to time.

 

That's a great story!! That was the problem I heard of guys having back then. Couldn't rev them. My dad always says "409s ran great, when they ran."

 

The engine with the Moon valve covers was actually a truck engine to start with. It's kinda of hard to get the compression down to 10:1 using the aftermarket pistons, but we were pretty close by using the truck block/heads (both have reliefs) and a thicker composition head gasket instead of the stock style metal shim gaskets.
Since we weren't replacing the seats we went with stainless steel oversized valves to give us a little better "valve seat erosion" protection. I pocket ported the heads and matched them to a HP 2X4 intake. That was lots of work and if you don't watch what you're doing you can go through the roof of the port. You also have to eliminate the intake bolt. I wouldn't go to the trouble of matching the ports to the HP manifold anymore since you can get a 2X4 or 3X2 intake that will fit the standard heads now.


Tradition Racing,
Yea, the Pan is my toy. It just sets there and weeps now days. Seems like I'm always working on someone elses stuff instead of playing with mine. (G)
Larry T

 

Curb weight from GM on a 55 210 2 door sedan was 3200 pounds. I hear guys quote weights all over the chart, but I can tell you from pushing my 55 up my driveway and into the garage by myself, it's not that heavy. Figure SBC, aluminum heads & intake, no spare tire and other bits that are lighter than their 1955 counterparts, who knows. The 150 and 210 are lighter than Bel Airs, I do know that.

 

My favorite engine in the sixties. I had a '50 Chevy coupe with a 409 horse 4-speed in it in '65; a '55 GMC pickup with a 340 horse 4-speed in '66; and a '57 Chevy 4 door wagon with a 425 horse 4-speed in '67. They were all stock engines. And then I bought a '55 Chevy 2 door post drag car in '69. It was not street legal when I bought it but I made it streetable by rewiring it, installing a large dual exhaust system from the headers back to the bumper and cheater slicks. I only drove it around town with the 4.88 gear but it would hold it's own with the newer big blocks much to the surprise of their owners. It was already built when I bought it but whoever built it got it right. I NEVER had any engine problems with it and I ran the shit out of it. I got in trouble with the law and sold it. I figured the new owner would blow it up but he did the same with it without any problems. He sold it and that was the last time I saw it. I think of that car often. Boat anchors they ain't.

 

Mr. Sinister, please keep this in mind, when building a 348/409 engine. you need a experienced machinist or at least a very good one that will understand and be capable of machining the block with its very unique deck and valve relief layout machined into the cylinder bore. The connecting rods are also a factor, weight and general mass wise in limiting the RPM's. TR

 

Yep, you need to find a machine shop that has a boring/honing setup that indexes off the crank centerline and not the deck surface. They make wedge plates that bolt to the deck to square them up with the cylinder bores, but it's not the best way to get there.
Just my opinion.
Larry T

 

I agree with Larry, 1000%. Get out there and ride the scooter today, you deserve it, TR

 

The cast iron 409's just won't make horsepower. See the attached photos for proof.

Faded Memories runs a 482 that is ALL cast iron, including heads. It consistantly runs 10.50 and has gone to 10.42. I go through the traps at 7200 rpm.

Does not overheat, very reliable and just a great setup. Dual quads and we run Nostalgia Super Stock.

You should have no problem achieving what you want. First off, find a TRUCK motor. They are cheaper, but better for racing.

The truck motor has better webbing, supposedly higher nickle content and is stronger on the bottom end. The design has relief, thus the lower compression of 7.5/1 in stock form.

Just perfect for the addition of a blower. With ten pounds of boost, you should still be around 9.5/1 and thus capable of running pump gas.

It may take some expertise to put together a combination that will produce 400+ HP and get the speed you desire.

When you get you plan on paper and have the funds in order, send me a PM and I will steer you to a couple of capable shops.

 

Good advice, and I had thought about that quite a bit. While I want to get my hands dirty on the build, I'll be leaving the machining to the pros.

 

Well since you CLEARLY don't know what the hell you're doing with a W motor , I might just take you up on that!! LIke I said above, It might not happen any time soon, but hopefully it will happen. Just trying to learn as much as I can BEFORE getting nuts-deep in this.
Thanks!!

 

Larry
I wouldn't let the pan weep from none use. Maybe you should send it to spend the summer with its goofy uncle. I actually have a run I am supposed to be make later this summer and if I make the trip on a borrowed pan everyone will know its me.

I still remember when anyone that was anyone owned a dremmel tool and some ear plugs. Carving ports used to be real common, now unless you figure that your time isn't worth anything its cheaper to buy heads or matched intakes. You can get it done off the shelf for just about anything any more. But it just isn't the same, or should I say you just have to do it the hard way once in awhile just to remember how much fun it was.

It is hard to come by anyone any more who has the skills to work a set of heads. Lots of respect for anyone who knows how it is done or is willing to learn.

 

Yes, and no. The relief in the block and heads will drop the compression around .75 point. The rest is in the pistons. And I don't think I'd sleep real well knowing I had stock truck pistons under a blower either.
But that's just me.
Larry T

 

I was in no way suggesting he use stock pistons, but I can see how it may have seemed that way. Certainly the entire rotating assembly needs to be designed for his specific purpose. My engine really doesn't have much that is OEM besides the castings.

 

If someone wants to run stock pistons under a blower on a Chevy motor they need to start with a 427 tall deck. I know that there are probably some stock 409s that are huffed and I don't doubt that it was done when they were still considered cutting edge but it just isn't good mechanics to do it that way.

Blower motors built right is a whole different animal. It is way more than bolting a blower on one and driveing it.

 

Yes you can spin them high, there is a LOT of good info here in the archives. Todays knowledge and tech allow for some wild combos.