History Radical engineering on customs

I got to thinking about this comment on the Front Wheel Drive Hot Rods thread:

I was working up a response, mainly agreeing that if one is building something performance-oriented from basically rear-wheel-drive architecture there would be little sense in discarding the advantages of rear-wheel drive. However, it occurred to me that front-wheel-drive might be worth exploring in a custom, and elaborating that made me feel the need for a new thread.

I got to wondering what precedent there was for radical engineering in custom cars. The only example that really stands out is Harry Bradley and the Alexander brothers' Deora of, strictly speaking, just after the HAMB era. Indeed I'd expect to find more in the later years, as the custom car as we know it really emerged out of a coachbuilding tradition that largely regarded the chassis as a given. Moreover the tendency in the early '60s show scene was to greater sensationalism which might have supported some gratuitous engineering weirdness - but it could also be said that that killed the traditional custom, for a while at least.

I'd like to see examples of radical engineering on customs pre-c.1965: front-wheel-drive, rear engines, mid-engines, multiple engines, unusual engines, any other peculiarity of layout or drive or packaging. I'm pretty sure that's where people's heads were going, but did actual machinery follow?

 

How about the Golden Sahara, Skonzakes seems a little weird, but that's sometimes what it takes, and that car was pretty far out for it's time. Plus he actually had his hands on it, and drove it too...would love to see it now.

 

1st example that comers to mind is the X-sonic.
Other than the cord command in the pictures at some point it had a radio command to operate any electric function of the car, including the lifts.
Mos. def. a weird mix of backyard engineering and way ahead of its times.

This could be an intresting thread, i hope it will get far enuff.

 

In this shot the rear-seat wet bar sort of suggests an induction system :

It might have been cool with a multi-two'ed 317 behind the seats ...

 

bttt

 

Can´t forget Winfields DS based Reactor. The mechanics fo the car really are perfect for this shape. I wonder if the choice of drivetrain lead to the shape, or vice versa?

 

Thanks James. What year was that? Perhaps something with which to confront future debates about airbags and hydraulics?

 

It was Corvair powered too. Debuted in 1965 apparently....

http://wastedwheels.blogspot.com/2011/02/gene-winfields-reactor.html

Almost a pity that the motor is covered - a pair of triple barrel carbs with chrome stacks on them would have looked really good.

 

i had no idea that The Reactor was DS based.
I thought it had hydraulics, while isnt early Citroen a weird oil/vacuum set up?
Still, totally out there.

As for the juice vs air debate,there is no debate. Lifts were 1st to get custom/street use.

 

The Citroën set-up is actually brilliant. I didn't understand why for a long time.

Strictly speaking it's pneumatics, i.e. airbags, and hydraulics. What makes it brilliant is that hydraulic seals don't take long before they start leaking, especially in the real world where things see abuse. Therefore Citroën designed their system to leak. It leaks all the time, and quite profusely at that; but it takes a seriously long time before it gets any worse. And there is a whole secondary reticulation that picks up the leaked fluid and returns it to the reservoir at pretty much atmospheric pressure, which is really very easy. That's why Citroëns slowly settle onto their bump stops when parked.

Reading up on especially the earlier versions of the system gives a good idea of how simple it actually is, and how easy it is to work on and modify. It really is supremely diy-able.

 

I think you have to seperate rods and kustoms. anything on a hotrod that isnt standard isnt going to be traditional.

Kustoms I think should be broken into two categories, traditional like the kustom mercs with period trim from other cars.

And RADICAL kustoms, like the golden sahara which are fabricated & dont use traditional parts. the cut red perspex making up the stop lights on the twin finned second version could have come from 2011 & it wouldnt matter. its certainly not following tradition.

I think people argue for the sake of it, if you want to build something just do it, dont care about what the hamb thinks.

 

I fail to see merit in the notion that traditional hot rods were purely assembled affairs with no fabricated content. Surely there was no prejudice against fabrication at the time: that would seem counter to the entire spirit of the thing. Indeed I think fabrication from scratch from the tyres up was probably everyone's dream then, even if it was the reality of only a very few.

Certainly the use of historic parts underlines the "historicality" of a modern build (a consideration that would have meant little in the original era, so it may be argued that caring about that is in itself historically incorrect ...) But that isn't quite the same as tradition. I think tradition is more about one's attitude to the material, be it stock or fabricated or wholly modern; its relation to a line - or chain - of thinking passed from one builder to another in the historic era and manifest in the stuff they built.

Some of those chains subsequently led to things quite different; some stopped abruptly or fizzled out; others formed loops and have carried on until this day in perpetual "hidebound reaction". Some split and branched; some merged into other chains. All those chains are tradition, and you can latch onto any one of them - at any point - and add another link of your own. That's how tradition works.

I also think that is what the majority of us here are doing.

 

Perhaps not a true custom, but back in the heady days of the atomic age. Ford experimented with a nuclear powered car badged the Nucleon. They even built a number of scale models. However, in the end the engineering challenges were just too great.

 

The nuke pak looks like it can be ejected in case of a "warp core breech".

 

Interesting where OEM designers' heads were going. Consider the size that thing would have been, in relation to its probable interior space and payload capability. Consider also the likely weight of that "propulsion pod" if the car's entire useful bit is cantilevered over the front axle. There seemed to be something going on at the time that one might call "the normalization of overkill", and I wonder how much of it was unconscious and how much had an agenda behind it.

But it seems to support my original thesis: surely the custom-car world was watching all this happen, and must have been getting ideas - indeed must have been a bit miffed at being outradicalled. Who acted on their ideas?

 

I suppose you could say that Kustoms were always about the looks anyway, so radical engineering hidden underneath one could be seen as a bit redundant, outside of new ways to go ever lower.

 

With the amount of money and time invested into a quality Custom car of the era it isn't surprising that beyond lowering, most remained close to stock under the skin.
Personally I see no real reason to now limit ourselves to only early mechanical parts on a Custom as the later parts are unviewable anyway.
The true beauty of a Custom really is only skin deep!

Having said that, if a person wants to take it to the fully retro drivetrain level then theres no reason not to....but if both cars are done well, you could park both cars side by side and you wouldn't pick new from old anyway.
It would really be about a personal goal being attained.

Stripped down Hot Rod....different thing entirely!
The mechanical IS the look and its really easy to make a single bad decision that kills the look of the car.

 

Getting lower is to some extent where this line of thinking started for me, e.g. a sectioned '49 Mercury with a flathead in the trunk, radiators in the rear quarters, and a tucked-and-rolled luggage space up front. There's potential for lowness there.

One wonders if the proportions don't go wonky beyond a certain state of attenuation, though. Lower than a certain point it's just weird.

 

Now, this is incredibly cool. i dont care how stupid,useless,or dangerous it might be.
iF i ever win the lottery i'd build one...gas powered of course.

 

Some more info on the Nucleon.

From The Atomic Automobile
Written by Alan Bellows on 27 August 2006
http://www.damninteresting.com/the-atomic-automobile



The Ford Nucleon concept car during the 1950s, much of the world was quivering with anticipation over the exciting prospects of nuclear power. Atomic energy promised to churn out clean, safe electricity that would be "too cheap to meter." It seemed that there was no energy problem too large or too small for the mighty atom to tackle during the glorious and modern Atomic Age.
It was during this honeymoon with nuclear energy– in 1957– that the Ford Motor Company unveiled the most ambitious project in their history: a concept vehicle which had a sleek futuristic look, emitted no harmful vapors, and offered incredible fuel mileage far beyond that of the most efficient cars ever built. This automobile-of-the-future was called the Ford Nucleon , named for its highly unique design feature… a pint-size atomic fission reactor in the trunk.
Ford's engineers imagined a world in which full-service recharging stations would one day supplant petroleum fuel stations, where depleted reactors could be swapped out for fresh ones lickety-split. The car's reactor setup was essentially the same as a nuclear submarine's, but miniaturized for automobile use. It was designed to use uranium fission to heat a steam generator, rapidly converting stored water into high-pressure steam which could then be used to drive a set of turbines. One steam turbine would provide the torque to propel the car while another would drive an electrical generator. Steam would then be condensed back into water in a cooling loop, and sent back to the steam generator to be reused. Such a closed system would allow the reactor to produce power as long as fissile material remained.
Using this system, designers anticipated that a typical Nucleon would travel about 5,000 miles per charge. Because the powerplant was an interchangeable component, owners would have the freedom to select a reactor configuration based on their personal needs, ranging anywhere from a souped-up uranium guzzler to a low-torque, high-mileage version.

William Ford alongside a 3/8 scale Nucleon model and without the noisy internal combustion and exhaust of conventional cars, the Nucleon would be relatively quiet, emitting little more than a turbine whine.
The vehicle's aerodynamic styling, one-piece windshield, and dual tail fins (which are absent in some photographs) are reminiscent of spacecraft from 1950s-era science fiction, but some aspects of the Nucleon's unique design were more utilitarian. For instance, its passenger area was situated quite close to the front of the chassis, extending beyond the front axle. This arrangement was meant to distance the passengers from the atomic pile in the rear, and to provide maximum axle support to the heavy equipment and its attendant shielding. Another practical design aspect was the addition of air intakes at the leading edge of the roof and at the base of the roof supports, apparently to be used as part of the reactor's cooling system.
Ford's nuclear automobile embodied the naive optimism of the era. Most people were ignorant of the dangers of the atomic contraption, as well as the risk that every minor fender-bender had the potential to become a radioactive disaster. In fact, the Nucleon concept was often received with great enthusiasm. Some sources even claim that the US government sponsored Ford's atomic car research program.
The Nucleon's silent, sleek, and efficient design was poised to secure its place in the American lifestyle of the future. It seemed inevitable that the internal combustion engine would fade into obscurity, becoming a quaint relic of a pre-atomic past. But the Nucleon's design hinged on the assumption that smaller nuclear reactors would soon be developed, as well as lighter shielding materials. When those innovations failed to appear, the project was scrapped due to conspicuous impracticality; the bulky apparatus and heavy lead shielding didn't allow for a safe and efficient car-sized package. Moreover, as the general public became increasingly aware of the dangers of atomic energy and the problem of nuclear waste, the thought of radioactive atomobiles zipping around town lost much of its appeal. Atoms had broken their promise; the honeymoon was over.

The Ford Nucleon sans tail fins Ford never produced a working prototype, nevertheless the Nucleon remains an icon of the Atomic Age. In spite of the Nucleon's flaws, its designers deserve a nod for their slapdash ingenuity. Their reckless optimism demonstrates that one shouldn't consider a task impossible just because nobody has tried it yet– some ideas need to be debunked on their own merit. With today's looming energy crisis and slow migration to alternative fuel sources, we may not have seen the last of the atomic automobile concept. A safe atomic vehicle may not be entirely beyond our reach, as the US Navy has demonstrated with its perfect record of nuclear safety. Perhaps one day fossil fuels will wither under the radioactive glare of the mighty atom, and our highways will hum with the steam turbines of mobile Chernobyls. It could be a real blast.

 

thatnx for this, it was good read.
Viva la Nucleon!

 

It was in an episode of Bewitched.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nubc-21RdAQ

 

Found on KustomRama, of which I had not been aware, Raymond Besasie's X-2:

"The X-2 was an experimental custom car owned and built by Raymond Besasie of Besasie Engineering in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. The car was the second of 4 experimental cars built by Besasie. The X-2 featured a rear mounted 1956 Cadillac engine with two radiators which were fed with air through two side panel scoops. and 3/4 race cam,<sup id="_ref-retrocom_0" class="reference">[2]</sup> producing 400 horsepowers. The body was built out of 16 gauge aluminum and the frame was made out of chrome moly tube. The car featured a wraparound windshield and a hydraulic sliding steel roof. The car had no opening doors, and the occupants had to climb up and over the door to enter or exit. The body was fit with a 4 foot fin. The taillights were seven-way, one for each specific circumstance. Once the bodywork was complete, it was painted light lemony yellow.<sup id="_ref-1" class="reference">[3]</sup> Styling was conceived by Raymond's son.<sup id="_ref-retrocom_1" class="reference">[2]</sup>

"In 1958 the X-2 was nominated as one of 28 "Top Customs of the Year" in Motor Life July 1958.<sup id="_ref-2" class="reference">[4]</sup> The car was also featured in a Clark gasoline commercial in the early 60's.<sup id="_ref-retrocom_2" class="reference">[2]</sup>

"The car was sold to Vada Schwartz from Phoenix, Arizona who owned a flower shop called My Florist Shop. She shipped the car to Barris Kustoms for a new paint job. The lemon color was not wat Vada wanted, Vada's shop was world-renowned for its imported orchids, so she asked George Barris to create a color blend in Candy Purple, just like one of her orchids. The interior was re-trimmed in matching orchid and parl Naugahyde.<sup id="_ref-barris_0" class="reference">[5]</sup>

"The car was last seen in a sad shape sitting next to a railroad in 1970."









This is the sort of thing I was looking for.

 

This thread seems to be going a bit all over, what is the point you were trying to make?

 

Was post #1 ambiguous in some way?

 

How´d we forget Norman Timbs Buick?



That X-2 is crazy. It couldn´t be more Fifties dream car if it tried!

 

Ah!

KustomRama, again:

"Homebuilt Sport Custom built by Norman Timbs over a span of three years. Norman's custom was supposed to be a prototype for a limited series of cars reflecting advanced concepts in performance and aesthetics. Being an automotive engineer working with Preston Tucker on his Tucker Automobiles and on several Indy cars, Norman made comprehensive chassis drawings that led to 1/4 scale clay models of several body ideas. The models led to a wooden model incorporating the favored elements.[2]

"Norman handmade an aluminum streamlined body for the car by forming panels on the wooden pattern and welding them together.[3] The chassis was of welded aircraft tubing. The car was 17 1/2 feet long with a 117 inch wheelbase, 56-inch thread, and a weight of 2 500 pounds. Norman's Streamliner was powered by a 1948 Buick Straight 8 engine located just behind the driver's seat. Steering, brakes and other equipment were standard Mercury.[3] The rear body on the car was hinged to raise hydraulically for access to engine compartment, fuel tank and spare tire. The fuel tank was placed between the wheels. The front hood covered a luggage compartment. In the rear, taillights from a 1939 Ford were installed.[4] Without the windshield the car stood 39 inches tall. Total height with the windshield was 47 inches[3] Total cost of the build was $10,000 according to Mechanix Illustrated September 1949.[5]

"In 1954 the Norman's Buick Special was featured in Motor Life February 1954. By now the car had been painted white, and it was owned by Air Force Officer Jim Davis of Manhattan Beach, California. In that article it is stated that the car was the brain-child of former aircraft manufacturer Larry Timm. According to the story Larry designed and built the car over a three year period ending in 1948. Davis bought the car in 1952 and was, according to the story, the first person to have the car registered for road use.[6]

"Norman's Buick Special was featured in an episode of Buck Rogers.[7]

"For several years the car was parked away in the hot California desert. In 2000 the car was featured in the Nicholas Cage movie Gone in 60 Seconds.[7] 2 years later, In 2002 it was auctioned away by Barret Jackson at the Petersen Museum Classic Car Auction. The sales price was $17,600.00 USD.[8] Collector Gary Cerveny was the lucky bidder. Gary began to restore the car before he handed it over to Custom Auto of Loveland, Colorado to let them complete it. Before Gary handed the car over to Custom Auto he repaired the wheel wells, grille opening and drive train.[9] The car was about 90% original when Gary acquired the car. The body halves had been bolted together, and access holes had been cut in for the rear wheels and the engine bay.[10]The restored car made its at the 2010 Amelia Island Concours d'Elegance in Florida in March, where it won 'The RM Auctions Trophy For the Best Open Car'."

 

Well theres a dozen posts on radical customs, are you planning on building one, are there rules & boundries being laid out here? Is it the style or the parts that make things traditional?

 

This one should be here as well. 1st car to have hydraulic suspension.

 

In that case: http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2011/05/04/besasies-bizarre-batmobile/

dan