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Tech Week! Using Modern Gauges in Your Vintage Cluster

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Kevinsrodshop, Mar 7, 2011.

  1. toolman1967
    Joined: Mar 13, 2008
    Posts: 441

    toolman1967
    Member

    This is great ! My sons 49 F1 came with the original cluster that he wants to use. This will be the perfect fix.
     
  2. parklane
    Joined: Oct 17, 2009
    Posts: 188

    parklane
    Member

    Awsome tech. Thanks a bunch.
     
  3. Did you have to drop the voltage going into the gauges to 5.1V and if so what regulator did you use?
     
  4. Kevinsrodshop
    Joined: Aug 22, 2009
    Posts: 589

    Kevinsrodshop
    Member

    I used the original voltage regulator. They are available from Mustang restoration places if you need one.

    As an alternative you can used the gauges from an early 90s Explorer and those work on 12 volts right off the bat. The rear posts are a little different though. They are not threaded.
     
  5. 57283
    Joined: Oct 27, 2010
    Posts: 127

    57283
    Member

    Cool thread! Great ideas
     
  6. AstroZombie
    Joined: Jul 17, 2006
    Posts: 1,788

    AstroZombie
    Member

    Awesome thread!!! Thanks for taking the time to post.
     
  7. sololobo
    Joined: Aug 23, 2006
    Posts: 8,378

    sololobo
    Member

    This is really knock out smart stuff. I am lovin all the great ideas from all my family on this "worlds coolest hot rod sight". Thanx a bunch this rocks. ~sololobo~
     
  8. enjenjo
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 2,689

    enjenjo
    Member
    from swanton oh

    If you look at the lower left of the picture of the F150 cluster, the tin thing with a screw in it, and a printed circuit snapped on to it is the instrument voltage regulator. You can wire it into regular wires using a 9 volt battery plug.
     
  9. hozem396
    Joined: May 4, 2011
    Posts: 287

    hozem396
    Member
    from ohio

    Great tech info! I ended up using the original 31 dash & putting AutoMeter mini gauges in the available holes. It was less than $200 & I thought I was doing alot better than spending $900 for a complete gauge panel. Plus, I got to keep the original dash & have new gauges!
     
    53FordEffie likes this.
  10. This should go into the tech archive... awesome tech!

    Sam
     
  11. I found it by accident one day and know it's there...
     
  12. rocknroad
    Joined: Nov 29, 2010
    Posts: 33

    rocknroad
    Member
    1. SoCal HAMBers

    What did you use for the bat/alt or volt meter indicator? I need to do this to my 54 Plymouth since no one makes an insert that isn't billet. I have to rewire the whole car anyway so I'd like to get all the gauges working too. Mine originally had an ampmeter with the generator. But someone converted it to an alternator so I think changing it to a voltmeter might give me better info.
     
  13. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member

    Does anyone know how to wire that "modern" F100 charging/amp gauge?
    ...With a GM 12v generator and separate regulator?

    I am just starting my complete gauge swap with this tech thread.
     
  14. The later Ford 'ammeters' were shunt types and weren't all that accurate (or reliable) when new. Ford used 'calibrated' wiring with specific wire sizes/resistances to connect the gauge and there's no definitive answer (that I've found) as to the 'ratio' they used, although numbers of from 40:1 to 80:1 have come up. The problem is you need electronic laboratory equipment to measure resistances this low with the degree of accuracy needed, and the circuit will degrade easily. If you have access to the complete donor harness, you could remove the shunt portion of the harness and possibly install that and get it to function, assuming that the gauge was working.

    If you want a useful gauge, convert to a voltmeter...
     
  15. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member

    I agree on VM vs. AM. concept. I do not have a donor harness.
    Got any donors in mind? Here is my 47 ply gauge cluster in a 40 Ford dash.
    I can put up pics later of how the PLY amp face fits onto whatever gauge might work.

    To be honest, all I need is to know while driving is: "did it go dead or is it somewhat charging". I don't care about how much it shows. (something as useful as a idiot light, but with a gauge)
    32 ford dash1.jpg
     
  16. falconsprint63
    Joined: May 17, 2007
    Posts: 2,358

    falconsprint63
    Member
    from Mayberry

    nice! I have a 33 plymouth cluster squirreled away. I see a project in my future.
     
  17. The problem is the resistances involved are miniscule; #10 wire has a 'normal' resistance of 1 ohm per thousand feet, so a five foot piece is only five thousandth of an ohm; for a 50:1 ratio, the shunt wire needs to be .125 ohm. Both amounts are well below the accuracy threshold of any ohmmeters found outside of laboratories; hand-held meters will resolve down to the nearest .1 ohm at best. The slightest resistance in any connection will skew the readings.

    If keeping the ammeter face is important, why not try this; go ahead and use a voltmeter, but align the needle so it shows '0' on the gauge face at idle with a charged battery and no loads turned on. Or you could 'zero' it at fully-charged battery voltage. Any load added will cause voltage to increase, moving the needle to the 'plus' side. If the charging system isn't keeping up and voltage drops, it shows on the 'minus' side. You'll have to decide just exactly where '0' should be with your particular charging system (this may be a bit of trial-and-error) and it will 'show' a massive 'discharge' when off, but will give useful info when running.
     
    RICH B likes this.
  18. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member

    I am a chit collector so I just found this old 18 wheeler gauge cluster...and it does have a SW voltmeter, but have not tested it yet. The "can" body depth seems deep, but I'd need to cut it open to use anyways, so maybe the guts are not extended too much? Lucky that the needle points up, the same way as PLY ammeter did, and not opposite. (did not take the Ply amp gauge out yet, so I am showing fuel)
    DSCN0656.JPG

    On my Ply gas gauge in the left side of pic shows a curved "lens" like a skateboard ramp. All the gauges are like that shape. Newer Ford F100 truck gauge on right side

    DSCN0657.JPG

    Pic above shows how deep the SW body "can" is ^
    .
     
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  19. Canus
    Joined: Apr 16, 2011
    Posts: 102

    Canus
    Member

    If using the F150 gauges like the OP and you would like to convert the Ford ammeter into a voltmeter for about $35 contact Rocketman's Classic Cougar.
     
  20. Jalopy Joker
    Joined: Sep 3, 2006
    Posts: 31,179

    Jalopy Joker
    Member

    Canus - Thanks for info - some stuff that can be used for early rides without going way up to something late model
     
  21. fordor41
    Joined: Jul 2, 2008
    Posts: 1,011

    fordor41
    Member

    I did basically same thing with my '41 ford except I installed the newer gauges in the stock cases ( they fit exactly). be sure to match the senders to the new gauges and get voltage reducers for each gauge(I used a Ron Francis VR-1, 12V - 6V, reducer to run all gauges)
     
  22. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member

    Well, If I make marks or have to remember what means what...at my state of confusion.. :)

    I think I found the best solution for me. I was not too happy adding those SW colors..red.green,etc, but I need to have something that is easy to read for anyone who drives it.

    I mentioned the SW stock "can" was deep; and taking it apart, is another smaller can thing. This SW voltmeter does have too much depth for some older clusters that are thin.

    The Plymouth gauge face is clear plastic with lettering painted on the back. It is crimped to a thin steel black mounting plate that is screwed to the gauge. (the plate seen in the second pic.).

    What I did was cut away a section of the inner can to have the Ply lens fit deeper on that can. That gave me the correct depth when assembled. But I also eliminated the black steel plate thing. I cut up the SW thin aluminum face to keep just the colored "bars", and decided to save the "12" and "14" numbers to make this accurate.

    I stuck that trimmed color part on back of lens, then spraypainted black over the whole back, to make a new black backround.

    What is cool about how it fits the Ply rectangular hole; that needle which looks "broken" on a SW with key-off, now is totally hidden with key off :)
    DSCN0656.JPG

    here is a poor focus pic of just the amp gauge finished. Note the needle is not showing like the SW does with key off.
    Also you can see the remains of the SW face I trimmed.
    YES....I tested it... it works. But have not run it yet to see how the 14 mark lines up
    DSCN0660.JPG

    Here is last pic showing the backs of stock mounting plate/stock gauge, and the SW guts epoxied to the Plymouth lens/face thing. The SW terminal posts are in the wrong spot for that rusty plate, so I made a new sheetmetal plate, so the gauge sits in the right spot in the cluster.
    DSCN0659.JPG

    Steve, thanks for adding to this thread on why the Ford amp won't work,....also, I am happy I have voltmeter now, instead of amps.

    .
     
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  23. big duece
    Joined: Jul 28, 2008
    Posts: 6,830

    big duece
    Member
    from kansas

    I love this thread. Right in the middle doing a similar project with old Stewart Warner gas gauge. Used modern 12v gauge, with vintage needle, case, chrome, glass. Good friend that does vinyl graphics for a living made me some face graphic decals. DSC09699.JPG
     
    ramblin dan likes this.
  24. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member

    Lucky you to have local talent for that graphic work.

    I have a sort-of stock 32 Nash convertible, and it took 8 years to find the missing gauges and speedo...but..each one was hit by rifle fire!

    The guy could not believe that I wanted them, but I hope the photoshop gurus here on hamb, could "blow up the pics"of each face, then touchup the damaged/missing areas, then descale back to normal, to make some sort of overlay decal/etc.

    .
     
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  25. Sweet & Low
    Joined: Feb 13, 2014
    Posts: 300

    Sweet & Low
    Member

    Wow what great info this has turned into. I think I need a later round Volt meter that will fit into by dash cluster from the rear of the face. I'm on a hunt.

    Another thing a lot of guy's are not aware of regarding voltage drop. I think it starting in back in 51 that Fords have what is called an Instrument Voltage Regulator for your dash. It doesn't take any more power that each gauge draws. The first time I used one was back when I built my Victoria and than again when I build my 50 Merc. when I converted them to 12 volt systems. There not expensive and NAPA has them for $20--$30 bucks and one regulator is all you need to do all four gauges if your running a amp gauge.

    Thanks for all the info guy's. You gotta love HAMB for all the info that's here.
     
    jetnow1 likes this.
  26. rocknroad
    Joined: Nov 29, 2010
    Posts: 33

    rocknroad
    Member
    1. SoCal HAMBers

    So here is my version so far for my 1954 Plymouth. I grabbed a dash from an early eighties Ford truck with a 302 V8 and oil and temp sending units from a uPick a Part a while back.

    Built a little testing circuit using a pot and 9v battery. I saw some electrical arcing and melt-edge on the ford donor so wanted to test them and make sure they work.

    These gauges already have a patina on them so they don’t seem out of place.

    Gotta build some stand off brackets and such for the back. The gauges are being held in place by hot glue currently to get them placed right and so I could test them.

    I have high hopes for this in the rewire. Got nothing but time right now.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2020
    Fabber McGee, Algoma56 and RICH B like this.
  27. Kan Kustom
    Joined: Jul 20, 2009
    Posts: 2,739

    Kan Kustom
    Member

    Glad you brought this thread up again. I missed it before.
     
    rocknroad and Nostrebor like this.
  28. rocknroad
    Joined: Nov 29, 2010
    Posts: 33

    rocknroad
    Member
    1. SoCal HAMBers

    [​IMG]

    Also found this on a bronco forum. It replaces the IVR which sends pulses of 6vdc. Where as this sends a constant 6vdc which would make your gauges more accurate and less prone to voltage fluctuations.

    You can find it on amazon for less than $10
     
  29. rocknroad
    Joined: Nov 29, 2010
    Posts: 33

    rocknroad
    Member
    1. SoCal HAMBers

    So I found a 2 amp dc power supply and soldered it to the new IVR because I wanted to at least test the temp gauge cause the original donor sending unit cracked in half while in storage. So I got a new one for an 80 ford pinto for $12.

    But I wanted to test it so made a little jig and put the kettle on. Using an insta read thermometer I got good results that I trust.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    That’s seems about right for 190 on the gauge. Had to dump boiling water in it twice cause the sending unit brought the temp of the water down before I could see what it was reading.

    Now my next test was to check normal operating temp of about 160

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Looks good to me!
     

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