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Technical Discussion: Ardun Style Heads For a Cadillac Flathead

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by 38FLATTIE, Nov 2, 2010.

  1. Bullington
    Joined: Feb 27, 2007
    Posts: 311

    Bullington
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Northwest HAMBers


    Jim probably has 65 some odd years worth of data to use against the 10 to 15 years they had back then. ;)
     
  2. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,349

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado

    I'm sure you're right!:D

    I found this explanation when researching valve sizes and numbers:

    "At standard temperature and pressure,equal numbers of molecules in any gas take up the same space. 22.4 liters of any gas, or mixture contain 6.22 x 10^23 molecules.

    Exhaust has both more molecules and is hotter giving a higher pressure or volume. The engineers can only cram in so much valve area. Due to the pressure differences several have cited, they give more area to the intake.

    Pressure x volume = number of molecules x R (a constant) x temperature

    2 molecules of octane combines with 25 molecules of oxygen to yield 16 molecules of CO2 and 18 molecules of water. At the same temperature and pressure, it would have 1.26 times the volume of the original octane and oxygen."


    So, one exhaust should work, partly because the because the exhaust pressure is higher.

    Not sure this is totally true in a blown engine, but I think what Manche and Rich proposed will work!
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2011
  3. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,349

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado

    Wow, I'm surprised at the interest in this! I can't believe the number of PM's and emails!

    I'm contemplating either the Hemi 241 chamber, or a 4 valve setup. With the Hemi, I have a proven chamber design, but a complicated/expensive valve train to set up.

    The other design is a 4 valve setup. The valve train will be easier to set up, and 4 valve chambers work well, although usually with OHC. Here is a very crude drawing of what I have in mind.

    So, tell me what YOU think.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Manche
    Joined: Dec 11, 2010
    Posts: 111

    Manche
    Member

    How would you deal with the resulting push-rod salad?
     
  5. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,349

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado

    On the four-valve, intake is pretty straight on, and exhaust would have to 'reach' over the top of the intakes.

    If I go Hemi, well, I'll just have to cross that bridge when the time comes!

    FlatRoy, who makes my intakes, always tells me to "eat my elephant one bite at a time." I think that is the approach needed here.:D
     
  6. Manche
    Joined: Dec 11, 2010
    Posts: 111

    Manche
    Member

  7. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    That looks like a pretty good engine if they get the new Wendover Gold mine going good. Otherwise you might have to drive up 80 a little farther to Wells. Or maybe just run it on the UP tracks.
     
  8. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,349

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado

    I've been looking at the Hemi heads. The pushrods come through the heads, between the centerlines of the intakes and exhaust, and the Caddy pushrods will be in nearly the same location! The factory Hemi pushrods are staggered, and the Caddy rods will be parallel.

    Overall, I'm not sure you could get a better setup for a conversion. New rockers arms will be necessary, but I think the whole valve train can be utilized!

    Guess we're gonna see!:D
     
  9. fatkoop
    Joined: Nov 17, 2009
    Posts: 713

    fatkoop
    Member

    I recently saw a flathead here in Denver that is getting a pair of 32 valve late model Caddy heads mounted to it. I know this is not what your doing, but I thought it was very interesting.
     
  10. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,349

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado


    Interesting! Do you have any more info on it, or possibly any contact info?
     
  11. Manche
    Joined: Dec 11, 2010
    Posts: 111

    Manche
    Member


    Northstar v8?
     
  12. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    I was thinking that if you used intake rockers simular to a nailhead Buick, that would lean the intake valves and ports ports back toward the lifter valley. And maybe Hemi exhaust rockers would give you the reach to make a good stagger valve head if not a true hemi. And line up with the flathead valve locations. Maybe.
     
  13. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,421

    64 DODGE 440
    Member
    from so cal

    You could consider using intake rockers similar to what was used on the Nailhead Buicks.

    Damn Rich, Ya beat me to it...I need to type faster.:D
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2011
  14. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,349

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado

    I searched, but can't find pics of these. Anyone have some?

    I'm tellig ya, the Hemi head push rod setup is almost as perfect as you can get!
     
  15. fatkoop
    Joined: Nov 17, 2009
    Posts: 713

    fatkoop
    Member


    I think so. I'll try to find the guy's name that's doing the work, and see if it's OK with him to post it.
     
  16. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,349

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado

    If it's not ok to post, please pass my contact info along to him, if you would.I'd love to talk with him!
     
  17. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    Yeah, but. The Northstar is a DOHC engine. No help for XXO
     
  18. lugnutz9032
    Joined: Nov 22, 2008
    Posts: 264

    lugnutz9032
    Member
    from Palatka,Fl

    Oh hell,how about knocking out some better heads and rods for the 331/365/390. Gotta be a lot bigger market.
     
  19. Lotek_Racing
    Joined: Sep 6, 2006
    Posts: 689

    Lotek_Racing
    Member

    For the pushrods, don't forget, Pontiac ran them through the intake ports on the RA5 motor and Mickey Thompson ran articulated pushrods with a guide tube in the head to get them around the ports on his Pontiac hemi heads.

    Shawn
     
  20. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,349

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado

    Obviously, you've missed the intent of doing this! I could care less about creating a market- I'm doing this for me!

    Thanks, I'll check them out!

    Right as usual Rich!

    I'll still go loook at the setup, though, if given a chance!
     
  21. 1952henry
    Joined: Jan 8, 2006
    Posts: 1,365

    1952henry
    Member

    As did Ford on the FE427 and 302 Tunnel Port.
     
  22. 32 for me
    Joined: Dec 7, 2005
    Posts: 154

    32 for me
    Member
    from SO. CAL.

    I'm the one you PM.
    I'm building a 1946 Lincoln V12 with home made Ardun style heads. I'm still working on the drawing for them, but I will show you what I did at first. I was going to make a modern style head that would work on the V12 with a origanal looking valve cover. After doing this I just didn't like it, what I really wanted was the real Ardun style.
    The V12 is made on the same dimentions as a V8 60. So I located a set of Ardun style heads off of a V8 60 and took all the measurements off of that. So now I have all the valve train dimentions and cylinder head dimentions. I just add two more cylinders per side.
     

    Attached Files:

    HotRodTractor likes this.
  23. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,349

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado

    Ken, That's wicked cool! I appreciate you answering me!
    Any idea when you'll get the heads done?

    I sent you a PM.
     
  24. HEMPMAN
    Joined: Apr 3, 2010
    Posts: 15

    HEMPMAN
    Member
    from Calgary

    All of this can be done. Ardun style heads for an old Caddy flatty are no problem. How much money ya got?
     
  25. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    32 I can't help noticing your "Ardun" style heads are not hemi heads nor do they have the Ardun/Chrysler cross valve arrangement. The real Ardun V8-60 heads had a cross pushrod to a second exhaust rocker on a separate shaft. The V8-85 Ardun of course had the same short intake rocker, long exhaust. Your deal will be like those "Ardun" style heads sold to Model A guys, that have a Ardun style valve cover (85 not 60) but no other Ardun similarity's.
     
  26. 32 for me
    Joined: Dec 7, 2005
    Posts: 154

    32 for me
    Member
    from SO. CAL.

    Like I said in my post, this was my first design that I wasn't happy with. I am making exact ardun heads.
     
  27. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,349

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado

    Pretty confident I have enough to make this happen!
    ....and if you stck around, you'll see 'em!

    Ken, care to post any models of your newest design?
     
  28. HEMPMAN
    Joined: Apr 3, 2010
    Posts: 15

    HEMPMAN
    Member
    from Calgary

    Best of luck to you, that would be very cool.
     
  29. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    So you did. I guess this is in conflict with my campaign to make everyone else improve their reading comprehension. I have never worked with Cad drawings. I seldom use drawings at all for my fooling around. When you make drawings such as those above, are they dimensioned to locate all the bolt and pushrod holes? So that you know where you have room for ports and not? Do the dimensions show? How does this work?
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2011
  30. strombergs97
    Joined: May 22, 2006
    Posts: 1,888

    strombergs97
    Member
    from California

    Ok, so once the heads are made what about the intake and carburetion???
    Duane..
     

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