Discussing craftsmanship is only slightly less difficult than discussing what is art. There are general rules that apply, such as the standby "form follows function" but from there what constitutes real craftsmanship will vary from person to person. On one hand I believe that modifications should be based on cleaning up a line on a car or the previously mentioned bracket should serve it's purpose and be as practical in it's purpose as possible, style will follow. However, I am with Sailor in the respect that creation should not be hampered by the rule of pure function or the fear of creating something on a purely artistic level. "Change for the sake of change" is, of course, never a reason to modify. If you add more because "two are good 4 must be better" than..... If you add a piece of molding to a car that had none and it helps draw the eye in a certain, pleasing manner, then adding an otherwise useless element has served a valuable purpose, aesthetically. The Amish know a thing or two about pure practicality (are they craftsmen?) but in the aesthetic department, maybe not so much! I believe a majority of folks will agree on a "safe" standard of craftmanship but where things differ is how far to the left or right is acceptable? That will change from person to person. I will always love some of the classic late 40's-50's style of custom, Westergard, Sam Barris, Ayala etc. and love the clean work a very few folks like Cole does today but I also think there is an absolute need for the individuals that go way out on limbs when creating. Personally, alot of these creations stir me up and I like that, but even when the creation is on the garish side, it, in the very least, serves as a line of demarcation. I believe a true craftsman is one that mixes form and function cleanly. Maybe a true craftsman is one who makes the civilian wonder if it really was form following function or just maybe a little function following the aesthetic form. Why is a beautiful woman beautiful? Now, what were we talking about?
[ QUOTE ] Dick Bertolucci's roof on the Buddy Ohanesian Merc is the pinnacle of this to me. [/ QUOTE ] I'm with ya on that one. Probably still the most mind-blowing of all accomplishments in the custom world (at least in my mind). At only 18 years of age (just how much real experience could a guy possibly have by then?), Bertolucci managed to hand-form a LIFT OFF steel top that not only is just one giant compound curve, but at the same time provides a masterful sweeping flow to an otherwise somewhat fugly big sedan. An absolute masterpeice - and it was created by a kid working in a lean-to shed with basic tools. Was it necessary? Certainly no. But more than half a century later people still marvel at it. We are not car designers working for a big manufacturer with countless design sketches and clay models, just hacks in the garage with a sawzall going "ok, that looks about right" People striving to create that which has never been seen - that's what it's about. Maybe some attempts fall short, and some may be true attrocities, but then every once in a while someone shows us all sumthin' and then no one can question if it was necessary.
Putting a curved internal corner on a bracket isn't necessary but it removes a stress point and looks better. So maybe it is necessary. I consider chopping tops necessary in most cars. So I guess that's what separates craftsmen from builders. If you consider anything past good enough to be extra, or unnecessary, you're probably not a craftsmen. If you think building something means creating a part or a whole car that is aesthetically pleasing, serviceable, has a balance between strength and light weight, and durable, all as a necessity then you are probably a craftsmen.
I personally am opposed to change for the sake of change, guess that's why I'm not a custom guy. I always think that form should follow function. That said anything you do should be done well and refinement is part of doing it well. So in that sense I guess I am a sort of a custom guy.
First time I've seen this thread, thanks for bringing it back to the top. As far as I'm concerned, craftmanship involves pride and goals (whether the builder knows he has goals or not, he knows what is acceptable to him). And it doesn't really matter if it's simple or ornate. I'm definately a KISS kind of guy, but find that a lot of times simple is pretty time consuming to make right. OK, enough rambling, I've bookmarked the thread. Larry T
Yep, how many times have we seen a otherwise incredible car that showed that the builder got in too big a rush or cut a few corners in the rush to finish it before a deadline. It does take patience and hands that can perform the tasks that the brain thinks up. A lot of guys don't have the patience and some just don't have the hands on skills to get things right.
Each of us see every detail in a different way, given the exact same pile of parts each of us would construct something if not mildly different than something radically different. The best of all the attempts at the most fantastic looking and awe inspiring vehicles are done by guys who must truly do it only to please their own eyes., if they really cared what others think it would unnerve them and they would shake with fears of failure. To take and lovingly perform a task will, if well thought out and done by the hands of a well educated person, be a well crafted piece. The amount of personal input will vary per person, as will the end result. While all of us are craftsmen (crafts persons) some happen to exceed the norm and go to the next level, Artisans. While most of us can achieve a crafts status, not all of us can get to the next level. The effort to strive to your own personal best should not be lessened by the fact that others can excell to such high limits, justify your own efforts to yourself and marvel in the art that the fearless venture to achieve. Follow them if you dare, but if you dare, enjoy the adventure, the failings, the miss steps, the re dos as well as the final accolades. In the end it is truly so much more than owning an old car, it is a passion.
He also wrote, there is no such thing as "good workmanship", only an appropriate level of "workmanship" for a given job. The example he used was: If you were cutting wood pieces to make fine furniture, the appropriate level of workmanship for that job is not appropriate for cutting firewood. And if you were cutting firewood, it would not be appropriate to hold the sizes as closely as you would for fine furniture.
http://www.amazon.com/Nature-Art-Wo...9315/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1294512406&sr=8-1 Definitely NOT light reading.
Craftmanship like quality has no real deffinition. Its the old saying"ill know it when I see it". Everyone that has ever created anything on thier own from thier own immagination using the skills they have at the highest level they could has experianced craftmanship. its not just about the result but also the effort.
It's been a long time... This thread has gone a long way in a lot of different directions but the purpose for it is something I still believe in. It's not a question of craftsmanship or minimalism-as-art, or any other high-minded perceptual ideology... It was just me asking a question in another thread about whether the extent of the work done on a car really amounted to a significant discernible change to the original car? I think it's a question we all should ask ourselves at times. For example, say a guy starts with a 40 ford. Spends months hammer-welding and reforming to the point that every panel on the car has been masterfully modified in some way. Everything flows perfectly and all the seams are right on... In the end he takes it to a show and parks it next to another chopped and dropped 40 ford the same color and realizes that the over-all impact of the changes he made were minimal to non-existent.... In essence, he spent countless hours making changes that resulted in no significant improvement over the original design. It's not just a question of subtlety either... It's the point at which the pendulum of customization as gone full-cycle back to the negative... You've begun putting things back into the car that don't need to be there. There are a lot of old cars that have beautiful lines to begin with, like 36 and 40 fords. They can be improved a little but they don't need a lot. The point being, you can create a circus wagon even if all you're modifications are subtle and masterfully done, by simply making a few too many of those modifications.
I suppose it is. If you were to draw a parallel between this idea of craftsmanship and music, I think it would be similar to giving a club and a 55 gallon drum to a child and the same to a skilled percussionist. Both will give you sound, but one will be noise and the other will be melodic and rhythmic. Would it be unessesary to beat the drum in either case or fashion? Sure it would, but for some reason the holder of the club feels compelled to hit the steel drum. Sure there are things that are unnecessary on the surface, things that are hidden from view. Really it's a great place to practice and hone skills, try new things, all of which seem unnecessary until you need them. Target practice may seem like an unnecessary waist of ammunition to some.
Form over Function. I'm a detail minded guy who appreciates the effort and time it takes to improve or modify any vehicle. But it gets down to how your going to use it. Is it showcasing your abilities to promote your skills or being built to use? You see so many over built cars such as auctioned of on Barrett Jackson that are unusable as vehicles as originally intended. My funnest cars have been the simplest, better than stock done cars hotrodded or customized but it has a purpose visually and functionally and perhaps a little overdone. Sometimes you have to step back and say good enough. And yes I would paint my house in order to preserve what I have with a sense of pride because its mine. Good thread for revival.
"is the extra work necessary?" I enjoyed reading the great thoughts and different perspectives. I consider what I do a kind of art, my medium is mostly used car parts by choice and I like to drive it. Also I personally believe it needs to function as well, that said I can really get deep in the details which is usually not needed for function, so" it's not necessary" but very enjoyable and has developed into something that could be called craftsman's skills over the years.
Re-reading this old thread, I am struck by the concept of "necessary" or "unnecessary"...seems to me that the defining difference between a craftsman and a good honest workman doing the same things is that the craftsman's definition of what is necessary on a job is simply at a higher level... If the craftsman works for someone else and the boss tells him "That's good enough, go start another" the craftsman will be personally disturbed by having been stopped before reaching his goal. The just good mechanic or fabricator will probably have an end point more or less matching the boss's... Eventually, craftsmen will end up on their own, working out of their own caves to their own goals and supported by the few customers who both appreciate the beyond and can pay for the time... There are artists and patrons of the arts, and they exist in hotrodding just as in renaissance portraiture...
I don't know how to describe craftsmanship, but I know it when I see it. In my mind a craftsman knows how to efficiently perform work so that it looks clean and orderly. I don't think it necessarily needs to be unnecessary or time consuming. In mind cars hit three categories. 1. kludge - may be safe and look nice, but not well executed. Seems like a weird grouping of parts. Also may have varying levels of work. 2. Clean Build (craftsman) - All aspects finished out to a similar degree and level. Function and form seem to go hand in hand. Can still be used as a car. 3. Art Cars. - Riddler level vehicles are in this. Impractical to drive and operate because of excessive customization or paint work, or detailing etc. Absolutely beautiful, but completely overdone.
Not sure what to make of all of this... Since I have absolutely no use for rat rods I shouldn't be commenting because by some definitions they might exhibit craftsmanship. Barbed wire steering wheels and patchwork panals don't do it for me. Then again neither do Boyd cars with belly button motors. Pleasing radii, finished brackets, fasteners the right length. tie-raps spaced evenly etc.! I guess this makes me obsessive.
I picked up this old Fordor , worked on it for a few years of nights and weekends till it was ready for paint , then decided to cut it up and rearrange the pieces
Well a very old thread, just thought I would drop in and see if my attitude has changed. Nope it hasn't changed one iota. Carry on
That's a pretty good definition. I had 'issues' with various employers over the years because their 'good enough' wasn't up to my standards, occasionally leading to me moving on. I never went into business for myself (did not need that headache!), finally found a shop where quality work was appreciated on a regular basis. But you can't always be a perfectionist either; knowing where to draw the line can be a difficult thing to learn. But learning good 'craftsmanship' habits for the long haul in the end won't cost any more time, sometimes even saves some.
Form, Fit and function. Now days I see things show up that I personally would not get into much less drive. I am not one who likes fancy, pretty and glittery cars either. I like drivable cars. I like performance cars. If will go fast it had better stop well. My roadster is in primer sooooooo after a 4000 trip I just scuff it down, take out all the things that happened on the road and shoot it again. I don't have to worry about dings or chips. But to get back on topic. As had been said before there is a fine line between over obsessive and good craftsmanship. I guess it all comes down to your abilities and if you can be proud of what you have done. I love to look at what appears to be a normal styled hotrod until you start looking very closely at all the small things that have been done or modified.
Drawing the line ,,, My very first job was at a car wash, I was to scrub wheels and rockers. They'd better have been clean because it only took 1 time of the boss coming down on me for it. The was no line. Second job was making pizzas. They had to be perfect every time or that boss would blow a gasket. " that's my name on the door & on this pizza." There was no line. Third job was a grill cool. A steak ordered medium rare, or whatever better come off that grill just shy to finish cooking on the plate & arrive at the table grilled to perfection. That boss kept real good track of his food loss and there again, there was no line. First real job in a fab shop, I worked under 2 extremely good fitters and layout men. They made sure I didn't get away with anything. Everything I did had to be perfect or fixed and redone to perfect. No slop, no compromise, no tolerance. After a little while I started bitching because their stuff wasnt perfect. The tolerance was written on the drawings. I asked very flippantly why I needed to be so damn precise while they fly fast and loose. The answer was "because we know you can, because we're not going to teach you everything we know and have you fuck it up, because you need to be able to get things perfect before you know where you can cheat, because you need to know where to draw that line " The moral to all that is, unless you know where perfect is and how to get there, you have no idea where to draw this line.
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