I have seen diesel engines where the counter bore is located on a second deck around mid block and a stepped sleeve is used. Just tossing that out for thought....
Sorry...I've been in Vegas for the Barrett Jackson Auction and a Tattoo convention at the Mandalay Bay...When I get back to the shop I'll snap some nice pic's for ya Ray.....Sorry I did not check the HAMB...till today...I'll be back on tuesday....and you'll get them when i get time to take them... PS...we've shown the block with the middle deck design.... GNRS,La Roadster show,ETC..,For the last 2 years.....the middle deck does not touch the sleeve...it is where all the studs screw into....and it ties the upper deck to the valley and outside of the block with risers....we don't have a problem with cylinder out-of -round.. because ductile is so strong...5 times stronger than the previous sleeves....we had to change or sleeves to Ductile because it expansion rate is simular to aluminum....because we wanted it to be Homogenious..Now Kirby is just doing a few upgrades that he wanted...Girdle,Roller lifters, blower intake,high volume water pumps for stock flats,canadian cheater heads,ETC..we will be able to offer 2 or 3 different intakes,heads,water pumps,engine mounts,oil pans..etc...
Have you ever seen a Lotus 907? As used in Jensen-Healy cars and my G/GR Bonneville record holder roadster? Cast aluminum block with drop in iron sleeves. Lower third of sleeve is a slide fit into bores in the block/crankcase. Upper two thirds of the sleeves are free standing. They are suspossed to end up .002 proud above the sides if the block so they will be in compression when the aluminum head is installed. Worked fine in my car.
But on the Lotus the iron liners only fit into a short cylinder at the bottom of the bore. The much greater part of the liner is unsupporeted for about the top 2/3 of its length. Open deck. Drop in liners. Only support is in the crankcase. Nothing in the block or deck surface. Mine would bury a 8 grand tach through the last mile and had 12 ; 1 CR. Never failed when I had it.
You know, I guess I like Bugs Bunny as much as the next guy. But if all you have to offer at this point is grammar correction maybe you should take a breather? I can't figure out if you have some kind of vested interest in this project or are just a good samaritan out there to protect the common man from the evils of cylinder design? At this point I think we all know where you stand. And gooseta2 is either going to post pictures... or he isn't.
I glanced through this post, so I'm not going to say I am following the conversation, but I noticed comments about iron sleeves and them being supported in an open deck block. We install Darton sleeves in Hondas for High horsepower situations, and they are supported only at the bottom and the top. They are siamesed, and open deck, although the sleeve is supported at the upper edge. I'm not posting this to start up the war again ,but maybe just as some insight into how it might be possible. Maybe the ring that is used at the top of the honda sleeve is moved down to the middle to make a "middle deck" I dunno just a thought. Here's a pic of what the block looks like after we take out the stock cylinders. Pretty much nothing in there. And a pic with the sleeves installed.
well, this has been an interesting foray into the world of blaming and flaming. Can hardly wait till the next episode appears - along with the schematics and pictures, of course. I'm not a gold-chainer, but I could probably hock something (Chumlee, are you listening?) to own an all-aluminum flathead V8, just for the unique look and characteristics. Be fun to build an open-top early roadster, no fenders, minimalist equipment, and just have that little pony-squeezer sittin' in there...polished, not stirred. I'm always looking for new ways to attract attention from the great unwashed. dj
Sorry Ray...I didn't want ya to eat crow too fast....I've had the pics up on the HAMB for about 6 months now...here are the pics of the finished all aluminum flathead....it has been in the Motor City Flathead car test car and has about 20,000 miles now and has had NO problems....Runs like a top......Sorry I can't drop and the secret specs. Here are a few...built in pan/girdle..Crank Scrapers... all new high volume water pumps..339 cu.in....has been dynoed took about 20 pulls on it...SCAT crank I beam Rods....roller lifters..screw on oil filter or the remote style can be used...we willalsooffer a smaller cubic inch block.....289 cu in.finned heads or canadian cheater style...navaro and edelbrock will also be able to be offered on the engine...but even more details will be offered by Brian brennen and street rodder are going to do that......As your comments stated before that we couldn't do it..WELL WE DID.....BRIZIO ORDERED 2.BIG "DADDY DON GARLITS ORDERED 2..as well as many more....We are now in production and building engines.........SO ray I guess the LOL is on you...These engine have all been built bu mark and I and PHIL GOLLIER gooseta2.......here are some pics...
^^^^^^^^ Are you gonna send me a freebie to test? I will need one with the most cubes and somewhat lower compression so I can put a blower on it. I will pm you my addy so you know where to ship it. Thanks in advance moe .
<P>The motor looks nice, gooseta2. But I never received an e-mail notification of a reply to this thread, so you apparently posted these pix elsewhere (?). What's the cost of a complete engine (retail, please......not what Big or Brian paid)? BTW - If you'll look back thru my posts in this thread, you'll realize that I never said that an aluminum flathead couldn't be sucessfully produced. After all, aftermarket aluminum blocks are marketed by many companies, without issue. What I said was that it couldn't survive the test of time as it was originally designed, with thread-in sleeves having no support except the deck and crankcase roof. Then, after a lot of childish cussing and name-calling, you stated something about a "mid-deck" block, about which I doubt that anyone understood.......and without any supporting pix of that strategy - which you offered. So, unless it's still being produced with screw-in cylinders, the last "LOL" isn't on me yet. Respectfully, RAY
The beat goes on . . . man the two of you can hold onto a point until Hell freezes over . Now relax and have some more Holiday cheer will yah
Did you not read to post... Brian brennen and street fodder will have all the facts soon...middle deck does nothing but let the studs screw into the middle deck does not touch the sleeves. Just proprietary threads top and bottom and no cylinder out of round.so yes it is a screw in sleeve..... What's the cost of a complete engine (retail, please......not what Big or Brian paid) ....it's gonna be about 13,000 for a short block....you would have that into one you tried to build that was over 300 hp and 300 ft lbs torque..... Just ask mike herman at h& h and it would be blown....
And in between pleaseanton and the turkey run we tore it down checked everything and screwed the sleeves back in and run it to the turkey run.......and he daily drives it from Dundee to Saginaw every day......about a200 mile round trip......it runs at a cool 150 to 160 degrees even in hot weather....And it has torque and hp for days
Yup.....the laugh is most definitely on me, Goose! I feel like such an idiot, lol. Sooooo........where exactly can I plunk down my money and buy one of these puppies? <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> C'ya - RAY
Did you really wait three years just to post a smart ass remark? Fucking sad bro. What have you done other than think and say to yourself and others "it cant be done"? "While Henry Ford is today known for his innovative assembly line and American-made cars, he wasn't an instant success. In fact, his early businesses failed and left him broke five times before he founded the successful Ford Motor Company." "Thomas Edison in his early years, teachers told Edison he was "too stupid to learn anything." Work was no better, as he was fired from his first two jobs for not being productive enough. Even as an inventor, Edison made 1,000 unsuccessful attempts at inventing the light bulb. Of course, all those unsuccessful attempts finally resulted in the design that worked."
Speaking of alloy flatties,........ Whatever became of the ones seen running on test stands a few years ago ? 4TTRUK
Why......YES I did, Mad-Lad! I figured three years was long enough for "Brian Brennan" to publish the supposed article in Street Rodder or to hear about Brizio's or Big Daddy's exploits with these "innovative" aluminum flatties that were allegedly purchased or loaned for evaluation (NOT!!). The fact of the matter is that I really don't give a rat's ass either way, since very few people - including myself - are gonna plunk down $13 large for an aftermarket non-original flattie "short block"! Ya' might just as well install an LS! Have a nice day - RAY
Hmmmm..........someone recently mentioned The HAMB to me and I was reminded that I hadn't checked in lately to hear about members' experience running this highly-anticipated aluminum flathead! Soooo........it's been nearly 3-1/2 years since I last inquired - how's it working out? Seriously - did it ever make it outta the "testing phase" and into production? TIA for the update.
The Jalopy Journal
