Got a great deal on a pretty solid 55 Olds 88 sedan. Am doing a custom as the car had no drivetrain or interior. Plus I've been doing restorations forever and am bored with it. Anyway, the car has a 70something Trans Am frame stub grafted on (it's just tacked in place), and it looks like heck. The frame cross sections are not the same size. I need to do something to clean this up. The rest of the original frame is in really good shape. I am considering the Fat Man complete stub set-up as it would be pretty straight forward and has everything I'd need. I know the opinions of the FM stuff are all over the map......... Mainly looking to see if anyone has any other ideas. I want to lower the car, and end up with a disc brake setup and decent handling. If I found an original frame, it would cost me another $1800.00 + for the disc brake conversion so it's not gonna be any cheaper than the Fat Man set-up. Any other donor stub to consider? Thanks!
I've used a bunch of Camaro/Firebird front stubs but the rear steer "67-"69's are getting hard to come by. I like them because thay are more compact and the front frame horns are easier (IMO) to build a core support off of. I'm sure there will be other suggestions so hang around. Frank
I've done a few nova, camaro, s-10 frame clips. All with front steering. The key is carefull measuring and being confident with your welding fabrication skills. My dad has been driving his 54 stude pickup for about 10 years now with a 75 nova subframe under the front and it rides and drives great.to me , a subframe graft is the way to go dollar for dollar. If your olds has a shitty graft, cut it apart and do it right. Thats my 2 cents worth. i would like to see a pic of your subframe if thats possible.
I like the Fat Mans kits whats nice about them is they have all the mounts for the core support and sence your car has all ready had the stock frame cut it may be easier to make everything line back up right. Is the front clip on the car and dose it line up good? Post up some pic
Other than "it's not traditional" criticism, I do not understand the negative comments about Fatman products. I have looked at a number of their applications and have a few of them for my projects. The heavier the vehicle, the less comfortable I am with the "A" arms and I don't care for the coil-over style as much as conventional coils, but that's just me. I also have a Heidt's crossmember setup for an AD pickup and the Fatman crossmembers are much heavier material (5/16 vs 3/16) and I like that extra mass in the crossmember. The big advantage to a Fatman or similar setup, IMO, is the steering rack being tucked in tight to the front crossmember and therefore not having the steering box of the GM clip in the way. On the other hand, if your do some measurements and the forward steering box of the existing clip doesn't pose a big problem, that Trans Am setup should otherwise work very well. The mismatch of the frame sections could be addressed by removing some from each, opening a gap of 6" to 8" or so, and building a new section that blends the shapes and dimensions into a flowing whole. That likely will be a bit more time consuming than a frame stub made for the purpose, but would be less expensive if you do the labor. Just my $.02..... Ray
I would have someone else do the welding/fab on this part. I am barely competent welding sheet metal (although I am getting better). I will try to get some pictures posted of the current graft in the next day or so.
Does anyone else make a complete stub ready to go with all new parts? Seems like if I can afford this method it would be the cleanest.
donut29, the front clip was off the car when I bought it. Guy I bought it from gave me the axle centerline measurements from the firewall, but I'm sure I'd have to hack up the core support to make all of this fit back together. Thinking that because my fabricating skills are not that "traditional" yet, a custom made, correct fitting set-up would be the easiest/safest.
Here's a couple pictures of the fugly stub graft on my 55 Olds......... At this point I'm pretty sure the Fat Man complete assembly makes the most sense. Thanks for the responses!
I've got one one my mother's 47 Cadillac. Nice stub, good instructions and quality parts. Well worth the time and money.Plus you wont have to worry about replacing worn parts.
What's the advantage of the std. coil springs over the coil-over set up? Or is it just personal opinion? Thanks
I second going with a fat man setup. If your new to this kind of stuff thier kit will make it some what easy for you.
I went with the coils because it is a series 75 witch is a seven passenger sedan,plus we are going to be running a 472 cad motor with A.c. Ton of weight.
I'm kind of notorious for being against Firebird Camaro clips here, but in your particular case I would continue with the clip that was started. PROVIDING - the original work is in straight, the front wheels are in the right location, and the clip is in level. It looks a little scary right now, but this the "intermediate"point that most clips go through. As long as those previously mentioned stipulations are met, it's time to start blending the two together. This is done by pie cutting and moving the profile of the rails to fit. After, plating the joint with 1/8" or 3/16"stock to further reinforce and smoothe joint. it looks scary, and it kinda is, but providing everything has been done right, not bad or un savable. Your car is one of the few that can use the width of the typical Camaro/Firebird unit, and all things considered, it doesn't make a bad swap. I stand in the group that would not EVER use a Fat Man product. As a matter of fact, another local chassis guy who is well known and looked up to here on the board, has a pile of his stuff that we have cut off customer cars over the years. Yes his cross members are built of stouter stock sometimes, but it has been my findings over the years that it done to help mask some kind of scary engineering problems. Geometry is frequently compromised with his product for packaging, and I have problems with his lower control arm mounts not being in double sheer. These are my opinions over the last twenty years or so of being familiar with this product. I'm not saying they won't work, just that there are better ways to achieve that end. I probably wouldn't look to a Mustang II front end for your car any way. I hope I haven't thrown a wrench in your works on this one, I would just double check what you have before you continue.
I haven't bought anything yet, so I'm open to hearing other ways/options. I am not skilled enough at this time for the kind of fabrication you describe so I'd need to find someone local to get what I have finished. Why is an MII not good for the Olds?
I agree with the sentiment that IF (a big IF) it's in correctly - the mismatch in cross sections mean nothing. Blend them together with over lapping plates. It doesn't have to be battle ship ready - it's only a car frame - so 1/8" thick (to match what's there is fine). Do you know anyone who welds?? If so - cut the plates out yourself and fit them TIGHT & have your buddy weld them in. The thing you have to ask yourself - is WHY did the PO stop at this particular point? Is it F'ed up? Or did he simply loose interest. Measure twice - be sure it's right and proceed. I have a clip in my old '37 truck - the ride is fabulous - parts are cheap and work great. My cross sections were mismatched too (due to the OEM - not me) - it didn't matter at all because the tires are where they are supposed to be (they don't know how they got there).
I would really look to finding someone competent in your area to see that through. The reason I wouldn't recommend a Pinto/MustangII under your car is multi fold. It's a bit to narrow to work well under most mid fifties GM cars. There is also the question of weight. The MustangII really works best under lighter cars from the late thirties and forties. The original car that it came from was right in the 2700 - 2900 pound range. your car should go about 500 - 700 pounds more. We have been putting these under just about every car for about thirty years now, many times widened, stretched through the spring towers, anti dive removed, all things that compromise the geometry built into the unit. All of this usually results in a car that works "OK", but never optimally. You start moving roll centers and instant centers, nothing good comes of it as far as handling. The weight issues in my mind have more to do with movement of the weight of your particular car than it does with the ability of the components to do their job. The ball joints are actually fractionally larger than those in Firebird/Camaro clip, so they will hold the weight up, but the general set up of the system is made to work with less weight. See? I have put nearly 250,000 miles under my MustangII in my '48 Plymouth avatar. It is based off a stock cross member, and I have driven it all over the country as my daily driver. For that car, it is almost optimal. It weighs 3000 pounds with me in it. I could get deeper into what all this stuff is and does, but it gets more complicated by the minute. The safest way to do this is to match the vehicle and donor weights as close as possible.
I did a bunch of these Camaro/ Firebird clips back in the late 80's/ 90's. My first thought was fix what you got, I had good luck with them in 50's bigger GM cars. My thoughts were check it for square then slice, dice and box the joint. The biggest problem I see after seeing your pictures is where and how they spliced it. Too far forward, not enough kick up left on the clip. Where they have it sitting now the car will sit too high. Stock hight at least, maybe a little higher. Found a couple pics of a 49 Olds I did. Look how much higher the Clip sits in relation to the original frame. Yours looks almost staight. 2nd pic shows the car with the front sheetmetal on, sits low but not super low. Still do able on yours, just need to cut it back and Z it. With all the work involved to do it + the price of rebuild parts for the older Camaro clip you might after all be better off with a Fat man's clip.
That 49 sits nice & the chop is great! Thanks for the advice. I'm replacing floor pans now (teaching myself how to MIG & so far so good) and plan to get the clip done in a couple of months, then mock up drivetrain. Do you think std coils or the coil over set up would be better?
I have to take minor issue with comments regarding weight of MMII cars. they were a little lighter, as stated, than some of the cars in which the coponents are swapped. However, that neglcts the fact that Mustang II's had the engine centered over the front wheels, and therefore are forward weight bias/weight distribution that put as much, or more, weight on the front end components than many/most other cars. That is why when installing an MMII in older chassis (30's/40's) one often must use 4 cyl non/AC springs to get the car to sit and ride right even though it is in an 8 cyl hot rod. That said, I still have concerns about excessive weight when the car or truck is REALLY heavy, such as some of the COE's running around with MMII front ends. Regarding the pics of the F body chassis, it actually matches more closely than I expected and should be pretty easy to "blend" the frame rails. Assuming of course , other issues don't take greater precedence and nix the Firebird unit. Ray
Thanks Ray, I think that between the fact that I cannot really do this work in my garage, and that by the time I pay to have this assembly "finished", have a custom core support fabricated, and replace all of the wear parts I'll probably be close the cost of the FM assembly. I think the FM assembly will end up looking better, and I like that I'll be able to use the stock core support and bumper brackets. My opinion might be different if I had the experience to do some or all of this myself. Did you have any advice regarding why you would choose between the std coils vs. coil-over set-ups? Joe
I would tend toward using the standard coil springs rather than coilovers simply because they are simple, inexpensive, reliable and are easy to service in the future. The shocks on conventional coils are much cheaper to replace when needed and easier to install too. I might use coil overs on a fenderless hot rod or some special applications but not for a full bodied street driven car or pickup it just seems unnecessary to me. No really compelling case I know, just my personal inclination. Ray
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