Hot Rods Pics of my model A suicide front end

Drive it like that for a while,and you'll see what these guys are talking about.I had a model a with a suicide,spring behind set-up just like yours.I drove it like that for a few months,and hated every secound of it.During the winter I built a new chassis for it,and went with the traditional spring over.Night and day difference.Just my .02 but I'd at least do a spring-over if you deffinately want the suicide,not quite the streched out look,but maybe if something breaks,it will fall on top of the axle before your oil pan eats concrete. Good luck,keep us posted.

 

Don't baffle the guy with ignorance!

fuckin ratrod mentality

 

This is exactly what I first described.

Is that end investment cast or forged?

Nice looking setup. A lot of welding during assembly though.

 

Please show us how Ackerman "Can be fixed". I've yet to see it, the wheel/tire and the steering would want to occupy the same space.

http://www.nationaltbucketalliance.com/tech_info/chassis/ackerman/Ackerman.asp

 

Well, for one thing, 100% Ackerman is not required for vehicle stability.

Oval and road racing cars very often have far less than 100% Ackerman, and they are very stable at all speeds.

Reverse Ackerman is a problem that shows worst at large steering angles (like those encountered in a parking lot for instance). However, there is a lot of angular real estate between zero and 100% Ackerman, and all that territory is both stable and predictable.

A car with zero Ackerman will drive and steer just fine, though it will plow up a furrow if you pull a very sharp U-turn in a gravel parking lot.

Basically, the Ackerman effect makes very little difference at the steering angles commonly seen in normal driving.

On oval track cars with very wide tires (15" slicks), the effect of Ackerman angle is highly exaggerated, and even then, it makes very little difference in the car's performance and stability, unless the track is exceptionally small (like 1/5th mile), or the steering angles become extreme (such as on dirt tracks where counter steering is used heavily).

BTW, that link you provided illustrates just how you mitigate the Ackerman issues with front facing steering arms.

Like I said, it's just geometry. It also isn't as cut and dried in application as folks on here go on about it.

If you can get back to zero Ackerman, the car will drive fine, anything past that back into positive territory is gravy.

Bend the steering arms out as far as you've got clearance. They need to be at least even with the kingpin pivots, but outboard of them is better. Make the changes and drive your car. This shit isn't rocket surgery.

 

Not sure how Shadow Rods did theirs. I did mine the old fashioned way , fabricated by hand and TIG welded from solid steel with full penetration welds.

And yes, a ton of fab and welding work. I like how they turned out though.

I now have a different axle mounted, a forged So-Cal rather than the Magnum in the pics.
It's drilled too.

Larry.

 

For Ackerman to work on the early Ford axle, it has got to have the steering arms pointing rearward - there just is not enough space between the arm and the backing plate to bend them outward. The Speedway catalog (street rod issue) used to show how to bend the steering arms down to provide the necessary clearance you need. That advice may still be in their newer catalogs.
Much of our driving IS turning tight corners into parking lots, driveways, etc., and not just straight-ahead cruising. I've encountered many rodders running front tie-rods, and without exception their front wheels "plow" when making tight turns. That is because the outside wheel is turning tighter than the inside wheel!!!

 

That's awesome, you laid the exclamation points on me.

Obviously, this means you're right.

I find it particularly humorous that you say it cannot be done, then immediately say that Speedway used to tell you one way that it CAN be done. If there is one way it can be done, there are others. If you can't think of any, you're not trying hard enough.

Sarcasm aside, I'll tell you what, if you do not think it can be done, fine, run your axle with the steering arms pointing rearward and live a happy life.

This one feller that started this thread wants to make it work, and I'm guessing that he will (just like the many that came before him), even if it takes some time and effort.

Believe it, or don't, but a great many things that are "impossible" to a lot of guys on this board simply aren't.

That's beautiful, sir.

Very well executed.

 

Thanks Ryan

 

informative thread, I like the inserts with the mounting holes!
did you make the entire piece?

 

Blue One has a very good example here with some beautiful fab work. There is, however, one thing about it that I'm not crazy about... the bolt on perch. I've seen several of those fail over the years, one from a guy I know who was running them and a few examples I've seen on here. Once the front end is set up with the weight of the eninge and trans on it, I'd prefer to see that perch bolt welded solid in place on both sides of the bone.

Here's how we did Turkeyjerk's using old ford parts... Note how close the perch is in relation to the forged wishbone end yoke. This solves a few problems for you. It's stronger, it keeps the wheelbase in check (99 inches on this car), and it gives you room to run your tie rod BEHIND the axle! Never make your tie rod your bumper... The geometry can be made to work with the tie rod in front, but it's usually just as much work as finding a way to get it under the chassis.

Stock perches passed through the wishbone with a pipe spacer...


Then, with the chassis weighted down with the engine/trans/body, the perch bolts were tightened until the shackles were at approx 45* and tacked in place. The nuts and pipe spacers were removed and the perch bolts finish welded. The remainder of the perch bolts were cut off nearly flush with the outer side of the bone.


The car sits low, but doesn't look like a slug dragging it's ass down the highway.

 

This turned into a very cool thread, are those bones that Blue one fabbed solid or tapered square stock, I studied that one picture for a while can't tell, I like this bolt better than the welds, the bolt is the bolt, no penetration issues there, but did you weld that bolt on to the shackle assembly? If so, did it stay grade 8 or was the heat treat lost to the weld process?

 

The perch is welded to the end of the bolt. Larry (Blue One) is obviously a gifted fabricator and mechnically inclined, his seup seems to be better constructed and more well thought out than most. I'm sure it will work fine. As long as the bolt stays tight and isn't allowed to work at all. Still, I don't think I'd use this type of suspension on my car... It's just as easy to use a forged perch pin that passes through the bone and is welded solid on both sides.

Here's an example of a similar "bolt-on" setup that didn't fare so well...

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124309&highlight=broke+grade&page=2

 

Believe it, or don't, but a great many things that are "impossible" to a lot of guys on this board simply aren't.



Well said

 

Witha sbc!

 

If you take a look at the pictures, you can see I fabbed the bones from bent 11 gauge cold rolled sheet. Nice and clean material cold rolled and thicker than 1/8" hot rolled sheet.

By bending them and then welding the shells together they make a very strong tubular member and the end where the spring perch is located is 1" thick solid steel back towards the first lightening hole.

The lightening holes will actually make the whole works stronger too as they have the tubing through the holes and are welded on both ends.

The grade 8 bolts were saddle ground to the shape of the spring perch and I Tig welded them on, should be very strong and it's doubtful anything was lost in strength.

Gee thanks . I have been a welder- fabricator all my life ( am now 56 and started at 17 ) and now (last 13 years) teach welding and inspection, metallurgy etc.
In the field my specialty was TIG pressure piping and vessel work, among other things.

With the back up plate I explained above all tied together with the lower shock mount nothing will move and it should work well.

 

hey dick head, i thought a rule on here was to not place posts with personal attacks? Just because a guy doesnt run exactly what you do, exactly how you think it should be, does not make it wrong, just different.
Get off the high horse and maybe add something constructive that people can use or be inspired by.

 

YAY! someone brought up ackerman! good stuff Tman. I am a young guy who hangs out with old timers who seem to break up all my "good ideas". I simply take it as them trying to help me not die in the heap I built. Your setup looks awesome, and you did some great welding but listen to these guys so live to be a crabby bastard and boss young bucks like me

 

Love the construction of the bones, You don't think you lost anything by welding the 3/4 grade 8 to the shackle? That would be my only fear. I can't see the other side of it, did you put in a cotter pin or use a cinch nut or lock nut? Did you make your frame from flat stock welded together, what gauge and steel type did you use? Thanks

 

See post #48 above. The nuts will be full thickness nylocks on final assembly.

 

You have said in a previous post to be constructive, so here I go. Keep in mind I have a MA/ME, with a specialization in automotive engineering.

This is the single worst piece of advice that I have heard on this board (and against the law in many states).

Shock absorbers, in a nutshell, dissipate excess and unwanted kinetic energy in the suspension, via friction (directly, or via fluid), converting it to heat.

Not running shock absorbers can result in instant, catastrophic, uncontrolled suspension oscillation, possibly resulting in the instantaneous loss of control of the vehicle.

Just because you or others have been getting away with it does not make it safe. Your car could just as easily take your life the next time you drive it, because of the way you built it. If we could somehow limit the risk to just you, I would be fine with it, but we can't.

 

This is quite true. I absolutely didn't catch that he intended to run without shocks of any kind. That is a very bad idea.

As you said, shock absorbers aren't really. The springs absorb the shock, and the shocks damp out the oscillation of the springs by converting kinetic energy into heat.

Friction shocks do this poorly (at least from a ride and handling standpoint), but even they are better than nothing at all.

You must find a way to mount a set of shocks in the front, preferably telescoping oil/gas units mounted as close to the wheels and as upright as possible (say no more than 10-15 degs from vertical).

I don't think a car without shocks would even pass safety inspection in Missouri. Do guys actually run their cars like that on the street?

 

Sadly yes, and they are putting lives and our pass-time (and my livelihood) at risk doing it.

A whole bunch of air-ride guys think it is just fine to run without them. I have had shock-less air-ride cars come into my shop for work that left with shocks installed, as a condition of doing the other work.

 

Ha Ha Ha, 20 posts and you can tell us how this board is suppose to run. I love it.

Hey Italianrich, inspire us!

Plus, dick head is a real personal attack, saying someone has a ratrod mentality is just pointing out the truth! Telling people to not run shocks?????

 

Car I traded into had the same setup, and had zero shocks except the buggy spring suicide job. Road like shit, broke the hanger off the frame mount all the time, nearly turned itself into a shovel going down the road when I hit a bump. Unsafe and stupid. Tie rod out front never gave me a minutes problem though.

 

Only pic of front end hack job.

 

It cannot be said that tie-rod in front setups won't or can't work. There are hundreds of models of vehicle that came from the factory, just like that. My OT/DD is tie-rod in front. It just has to be set up properly. This might be out-of-reach for the average builder. On a small, light car, tie-rod in front is less than ideal, but not as bad as it would be with a heavier vehicle.

 

I have seen 25 or more buckets around here running no shocks. I guess "getting away with it" means it doesnt work, but it does. I understand about the dampening effect they have. ANY vehicle can take your life in an instant, lowering your odds only makes sense.

SPeaking of uncontrolled suspension ocscillation, any idea or thoughts on why dodge cant stop the 3/4 ton diesel ram truck from doing it? it has shocks, brand new shiny ones....dealer actually called it the "death wobble" but still cant figure out why it does it....my bucket hasnt done it, and a dumb old "fuckin ratrod mentality" guy like me built it...

done with this thread.

 

Death wobble is not a shock absorber issue, especially on the 4x4 Ram pickup and the Jeeps that share the design. Every leading-link suspension system is potentially prone to this. It is not a mode of operation that is outside of the expected range of modes, unfortunately. It has everything to do with the combination of caster, camber, toe, SAI, Ackerman angle, scrub angle, bushing deflection, tire deformation, control arm flex, etc. Everything BUT shocks.

Running without is running with just luck. Luck is NOT a survival strategy.