Register now to get rid of these ads!

Folks Of Interest NAPA Martin Senior Paint Problem

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by little skeet, Oct 13, 2010.

  1. little skeet
    Joined: Jan 27, 2008
    Posts: 310

    little skeet
    Member
    from huston

    I checked again with my painter...showed me the tech sheet and instructions..he followed it exactly. He showed me the sales invoice for the materials...it matchs the tech sheet.
    Plus, as I stated earlier..he painted his own Hudson Terraplane roadster with the same paint using the same steps and materials as he used on mine. His is fine and mine is as you saw in the pictures. Only differance was his used the red and mine used the blue.

    Go figure...he still says the catalyst they sold him was defective. We will find out when the lab samples come back.

    Thank you to all that replied and offered suggestions.

    I will keep you updated in the future.

    Little Skeet
     
  2. gear jammer
    Joined: Sep 22, 2004
    Posts: 339

    gear jammer
    Member
    from tucson az

    hate to say this, 99% of paint problems is the guy that put it on, and ive been a painter for 35 years, if I have a problem I always look at something I did wrong, alot of guys cocktail the hardners, although they wont admit it, i did my brothers henry j gasser 20 years ago with sherwin williams, base clear with candy in the clear, lots of material, Its held up well, If you do the job over, and you think it was the paint, strip it and use house of colors from the bottom up, Its proven to hold up with heavy film thicknesses, By the way paint mfg have batch codes on every can of paint and hardner, If there was a problem with the material they would know about it...
     
  3. carcrazyjohn
    Joined: Apr 16, 2008
    Posts: 4,843

    carcrazyjohn
    Member
    from trevose pa

    Damn that sucks........... actually the paint is shrinking ,
     
  4. Fenders
    Joined: Sep 8, 2007
    Posts: 3,921

    Fenders
    Member

    "Oh", he says, "That's wrong. This is all new formlula. The tech sheets were wrong for this, we have new ones coming out. You'll have to DA all the color off down to primer, reseal, and reshoot it."

    So...... when the a-holes who make the paint and the sh!theads who sell it to you give you the wrong info on using and mixing it, it's YOUR fault??

    EFF them, sue the bastards. Small claims court for the maufacturer and the seller. (Yes you can name both.)

    Maybe time no one buys Martin Senour any more?
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2010
  5. RABs32
    Joined: Nov 14, 2009
    Posts: 807

    RABs32
    Member
    from new jersey

    A few years ago at a shop I worked at I sprayed a 67 vette with the Martin senial base coat/clear coat. Did it with their black base with pearl ghost flames,We didn't have enough of the black tint to mix it ourselves so we had them mix the color, sprayed everything like we normally did,everything looked great then we wet sanded,polished,reasembled,washed, parked the car out side while we waited for one final piece,went to bring the car in at the end of the day and had splits similar to yours.We found out that the kid they had mixing color didn't put enough binders and balancers in the color,and finished the mix by just adding more tint because he was to lazy to open new cans.We stripped the car and I mixed the color with the right amounts resprayed the car. that was in 2000,saw the car at a show two weeks ago paint still looked good, We switched to Dupont right after that fiasco...Good Luck with yours....Rich
     
  6. hotflint
    Joined: May 9, 2009
    Posts: 310

    hotflint
    Member

    I have, sikkens used to use hardner in the base
     
  7. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 11,459

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    At this time I would be looking for another color or having your color matched in a better quality line of paint. There are lots of good ones, a safe bet is to use what someone like Foose uses.
     
  8. hope you find out what went wrong soon or your gonna go crazy thinking about it! i'm not a painter but after seeing a fair amount of what i call "product failure" looks like this could be the case here.
     
  9. dragit2death
    Joined: Aug 16, 2009
    Posts: 32

    dragit2death
    Member
    from michigan

    I used ms paint at my shop for a year and switched back to dupont. I would give it an "ok" rating at best, and i would say its factory refinish ONLY. Switched to save some money and i had more re-sprays than ever. I have experience, and im sure your painter has more, but bottom line is everyone makes mistakes. If you saw the MS tech manual you would think you were in a college chemistry class. They have a million products and each have different hardeners and reducers. Dont take this the wrong way but i wouldnt hold your breath on MS paying a dime for anything. It looks to me like there is too much un hardened basecoats and more than likely too much clear at once. I custom painted before i ever did collision work and no matter what anyone says, 3 coats of clear is all you should spray without letting it cure sand and re-clear. Ive heard all the horror storys of guys pounding on 8 coats of urethane clear to get that deep look...Problem waiting to happen. Making mistakes makes you a better painter. I guarantee your next paintjob will be leaps and bounds beyond whatever this job is. And just one dude's opinion.......House of Kolor. When it comes to custom paint there is nothing better. Period. Ive sprayed Hot hues, ppg vibrance, auto air colors, and some other fly by night stuff. NOTHING COMPARES TO THE VALUE AND QUALITY OF HOUSE OF KOLOR. When refinishing a stock vehicle wouldnt use custom paint, why would you use factory refinish paint on your beautiful cusom...Killer ride, would love to see pics of the final product, whatever paint you choose!
     
  10. SlowandLow63
    Joined: Sep 18, 2004
    Posts: 5,958

    SlowandLow63
    Member
    from Central NJ

    Just to clarify a touch since I use it all the time. DBC doesn't require an activator UNLESS you are using it underneath in a 3 stage system. And its DX57 for anyone that is curious.
     
  11. BCR
    Joined: Dec 11, 2005
    Posts: 1,265

    BCR
    Member

    I was looking for some clarification on the DX57, ppg doesn't have a p sheet, it is on the DBC sheet.

    The question I had was it didn't say that it had to be used in both the base and the mid.(I was pretty sure it did but not 100% sure)

    I called the tech line awhile back just to clear it up, and they said that if you are doing a tri coat, it is mandatory to use it in the base and the mid coats.

    It has a two hour window and if you get outside that window it will wrinkle up a few minutes after you spray it, a real frickin mess.(see below for how I know this)

    The bitch of this is when you have a problem while spraying, you better get it fixed in a hurry or your $$$$ base is done.
     
  12. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 10,244

    theHIGHLANDER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You're right on the money there. Also, DRR (reactive reducer) has about a 2-3 week shelf life once opened. Using the 57 in DBC reduces the potential failure of opened DRR and could save a ton of money. Something else for everybody reading regarding solvents. Most solvents are a commodity. Much like vodka, there's about a dozen solvents that are EXACTLY the same product. Grow Chemical urethane reducer was about $26.00/gal last time I bought it and DT870 was $48.00/gal. Being good friends with my sales rep I learned the real deal. Also as I posted before, if you want "Old DP", the good stuff, try Shopline epoxy primer. Can be reduced as a sealer and DPLF can't. 1/2 the money too. I'm told that removing the trace metals and other things that make DPLF what it is are where the add'l cost comes in. Shopline is the old DP.
     
  13. BCR
    Joined: Dec 11, 2005
    Posts: 1,265

    BCR
    Member

    Are you saying that MP170 is the exact formula of the old dp (still has some lead in it)? Do you use it to envelop your bare metal?

    Did not know about the reducer. Where do you buy Grow Chemical urethane reducer?
     
  14. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 10,244

    theHIGHLANDER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    No, JP371 is white epoxy, JP377 is black. It's PPG's "Shopline" series of product. Get the 'P' sheet and compare it to an old DP40 sheet if you have one. Characteristics are the same. Can be reduced as a sealer and DPLF can't.

    "Grow Chemical" is probably a regional company. Most every urethane reducer is the same not including the reactive reducers as discussed above. Since the reducers and other consumable supplies are what really take a bite out the pocket it always makes sense to avoid over spending for the sake of labels and marketing. I'm all for 1st rate products that have all of their ingredients but solvent isn't one of em. Cheaper paints skimp out on the stuff that has all the UV protection. It's also one of the most costly ingredients and leaving it out of paints that get tossed onto used cars is no big deal. Really, who cares what paint is used on a car with maybe 3-5 years left in it? UV isn't too much to worry about.

    Also, we've all heard of "Evercoat" products. They had a clear line called "Everclear" that was cheap, strong, easy to use and would shine like it was wet all the time. I can't justify using it on a 6 figure car but I used it on a racer with great results. A 1 gallon package was just under $100. Probably closer to $150 with the rise in cost of petroleum distillates. Good luck. Look for "generic" urethane solvents and compare ingredients but don't skimp on the actual paint. Hope this was helpfulto all reading it.
     
  15. SinisterCustom
    Joined: Feb 18, 2004
    Posts: 8,277

    SinisterCustom
    Member

    Good info.....I'll have to try the Shopline.
    The LF doesn't seem to shoot as nice as the old DP.
     
  16. sik_kreations
    Joined: Jul 14, 2008
    Posts: 436

    sik_kreations
    Member

    u forgot enamel basecoats. dbu is 20 year old technology. drr has 1% hardner in the reducer. dbc is just an updated line with newer toners and a choice to activate it.


    i highly doubt shopline is old dp epoxy. esp. with the lead content. i see it being a cheaper version of dplf. drr goes bad from exposure to moisture.



    since when cant dplf be used as a sealer? it works fine for one, and 401 cat. works killer on plastic.

    i disagree on reducer too. there are many chemicals in a reducer and different mixes of each and compounds. some cheaper ones may be similiar, but lack some expensive solvents. some cheaper reducers even have water in them.

    it might not be best to advise newb painters to be mixing products and using materials to cheat. i mix shit all the time. but i know the consequences as do u. u mix one product and i mean, using another brands reducer even. and u try and get a warranty like this guy did. and after they test it... ull be assed out of a warranty. on some stuff its not worth it. i recently had a little delam problem on a door of a full show vehicle. i actually stuck with one product, and it was all taken care of. for a 5 hour fix i was given about 1k in material(i didnt push monitary, but they didnt say no to product i asked for). and more stuff to finish the rest of the job. they said, if i had strayed from one product, i would have not been reimbursed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2010
  17. sik_kreations
    Joined: Jul 14, 2008
    Posts: 436

    sik_kreations
    Member


    totally agree with u. i see a problem of too much un-activated base.

    in my experience, anything over 4-5 coats should be activated. even adding a little of the clear catalyzt works also in a pinch.
     
  18. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 10,244

    theHIGHLANDER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Everyone has a gig they like. It's best to stick with it. Shopline 507, DT870, same. 507, about 1/2 the money. Have done litterally a couple hundred thousand dollars in paint work in the last 5yrs with the advise I shared. DPLF does not make for a good sealer. It's not a recommended practice according to the PPG techs that visit us now and then. JP377 is like old school DP90. Read the P sheets. Non sanding for 36hrs where DPLF is 72hrs. "The trace metals remain" is a direct quote from our reps. Lead? Maybe not but I care less. DPLF is a bit over $200/pkg, JP, nearly 1/2. I won't advise just willy nilly any solvent into your expensive paint. The products I listed have proven effective in performance and cost. I do very expensive restoration work and can't afford to risk longevity or performance. If you had near 1000hrs in a body rework and finish going back would be downright stupid if the issue was cheating on mat'l. There's ways to save and ways not to, ways to get the old performance features of a product, ways to raise the bar.

    Like I started, stick with a gig that works. DPLF as a sealer for us did not work. It trapped solvents. Can't use polyester primer over certain etch primers. Can't use it over unsanded epoxys. Sealer should be used to slow the solvent penetration on initial application and reduce swelling of substrates. I'll leave it there.

    We do agree that there's soft base under the "kool stuff" and I'm of the opinion that some black epoxy may have been a good substitute for a black underbase giving both a mechanical and chemical bond.
     
  19. sik_kreations
    Joined: Jul 14, 2008
    Posts: 436

    sik_kreations
    Member


    i read the info on on the jp377. its lead and chromate free. thats all the good stuff that was in the old dp. chromate(adhesion) and lead(coverage) made the old primers. this stuff is dplf for sure.

    if they didnt want u to make it a sealer, they wouldnt give mix ratio for it.
     
  20. little skeet
    Joined: Jan 27, 2008
    Posts: 310

    little skeet
    Member
    from huston

    Lots of info here for everyone. The end story is...my painter applied the paint correctly using all new material from Martin Senour. Senior for the one that likes to call people dumb asses.
    It was all the fault of the paint, not my painter or how he applied it.
    My car has been completely re-painted...using a different brand of paint. I have received information that Martin Senour had problems with this type of paint and more people have had the same problem as mine. We are still waiting for them to respond on the labor. We sent two other samples to two other paint labs...for back up results. Both of them confirmed failure of the paint chemicals.
    I am contacting the paint rep with more information and seeking re-imbursement for my pinstripes. New pinstripes are going to be put on this week.

    Thank you to everyone who respond.

    P.S.
    If anyone else had the same problem with their paint. Send me a private message.

    "Wasn't anybody there except me and Little Skeet".....That's My Paw
     
  21. Master of None
    Joined: Dec 18, 2009
    Posts: 2,279

    Master of None
    Member

    Got any pictures of the new paint job? I like the color.
     
  22. rosco gordy
    Joined: Jun 8, 2010
    Posts: 648

    rosco gordy
    Member

    Paint companys dont give a shit about us its all about money supplies are out of control and they could give a shit less all of em!!! they raise there prices at will and will continue un less you stop buyin, and we know that will not happen
     
  23. oldolds
    Joined: Oct 18, 2010
    Posts: 3,407

    oldolds
    Member

    Lots of luck on your labor claim. Their guarantee policy is material only. Been there done that. Years ago painted 3 Mack trucks with factory mixed yellow paint. Yellow paint that had white dots in it after a day in the sun. The truck owner wasn't happy. He had $$ to pay a lawyer. All we got was more paint. I was being paid by the hour, not my problem.
     
  24. Westerman
    Joined: May 11, 2010
    Posts: 152

    Westerman
    Member
    from Cincinnati

    A good friend of mine that has a custom shop used it for a year or so... He is now back with PPG... I would say Martin Senior should step up to the plate and take care of it..
     
  25. little skeet
    Joined: Jan 27, 2008
    Posts: 310

    little skeet
    Member
    from huston

    [​IMG]

    Here is a quick pic of it right after completion of the new paint. Will have better pics after the pinstiping is completed.
     

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2021 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.