I machined the starter nose for flywheel clearance since it mounts upside down and thats fine. After reassemblying the starter the washer at the end of the bendix is hitting the flywheel and it doesn't appear to have enough kickout room even if it wasn't hitting for the starter drive to engage the 'wheel. I have a 6 cylinder 'wheel on it now but I thought all the 146T wheels were the same? I put a couple pic's up but they don't show the conflict very well. Its a hemi to chevy 4 speed bellhousing, SG585. Anybody point me in the right direction here...
Very very strange. I have questions about the flywheel. I have seen 8 bolt and 6 bolt but never a 4 bolt. What did that come off of? My favorite is the flat 6 with 6 bolts. All the hemi starters that I have do not have a solenoid. I think you may have the wrong starter. Did it come with the engine? Did it fit before?
In Pic number one, you can see that the gear cannot go out to the flywheel teeth, because the starter snout is too short. So unless there is a flywheel that sets in deeper towards the front, then the starter must be wrong.
Its the starter off the motor, a 291 Desoto. I also have a starter off a 331 and it is same size wise. The flywheel is a 6 banger, they only had 4 bolts. I will drill it for the other 4 later. I'm just wanting to fire the motor up on the stand right now. But somethings amiss here, hope someone has a answer, I'm stumped....
What does the early GM starter fit like if it is a Adapter for that. . Thats what we used on Mikes 331 (A DElco starter from some old GM with a gear for 168 teeth. Our starter guy had it on the shelf and knew what we needed.) and it works fine. We used a 57 Ply flywheel and an original 50's bellhousing. (With no aluminum spacer. ) I had done the 6 cly to 8 cylinder swap before and discovered that worked . I did it on this car in about 1965. Flat Six bellhousing and flywheel scrapped the spacer or adapter and bolted the 58 bellhousing direct to the 313 block. It worked on the 331 hemi for Mikes Willys too. Not a lick of a problem. I picked the right parts out for Mikes from memory.
That adapter uses some other starter. It is much thicker than the original spacer that was used, therefore the stock starter will be too short. Steven.
I just read where it is a Speed Gems Hemi to Chevy 4sp. adapter. It will use the Chevy starter. Count the teeth on flywheel ring gear and use the correct GM starter. If you still can't get it to work, please send it to me. Steven.
All I know is, the pics don't show everything. The original poster said it was Hemi to Chevy Speed Gems adapter. If that was true, it would take a Chevy starter. The original spacer on the hemi was less than half as thick as that adapter, so naturally the stock starter will not work. This is all I was pointing out! Steven.
Bullrack, any chance that Speedgems would have used a 4sp hydramatic chevy starter from a truck? I had one from a 6 cyl truck hydramatic and I know it was different than a 6 stick ... I think it was 2 bolt. I thought the stock Chevy factory hydro-to-235 cast iron adapter was about that thick.
Not sure, but I think you may be onto something there. I wasn't meaning to sound short just now either, but something is not right here. I was sitting here studying this situation and was trying to remember what my Speed Gems adapter looks like. Had to go out and dig for it but couldn't find it. Called Dad and he thinks mine has a machined starter surface meaning it is not as thick where the starter bolts. And Dad claims mine is for a later model Gm starter. Who knows now!
OK, brain is working again! Maybe this is an early Speed Gems adapter that uses the 4spd hydro starter. I remember there being several choices of hemi to Chevy and F&J may have hit the nail on the head!
Well I was wrong on the 6 cyl 235 hydro starter....I found only a pic of the adapter I had, and it looks like 3 bolt. Sorry Can't say that I ever saw the early Chevy truck v8 hydro starter, but I am positive that the Chevy 6 and Chevy 8 hydro starters are not the same. Some bidders told me that when I had my 6 cyl hydro starter up for auction. GMC mid 60s V6 305 used 2 bolt on standard trans only. ... But the 305 V6 used a chev 3 bolt on the PG and TH400
I think you need an early Chrysler starter. I am using one in my roadster with a Cragar 0401 adapter which I believe is identical on the engine side to the Speed gem. I have both on the shelf and a starter. I will do some fitting for you tomorrow and see how it looks. No Chevy will fit and that is for sure. The Hydro starter had the std. three bolt flange and the solinoid mounted on the bottom.
I know you are trying to get an explanation for the starter to flywheel problem, but it looks like it would be some simple machining to move starter closer to engaging flywheel.
I went through THE VERY SAME SITUATION today...My adapter, a WILCAP, late flathead to late GM needed a 2 bolt starter...guess what? mopar smallblock starter fit perfect.....GO FIGURE
That IS a early Chrysler starter. I have 3 of them, 1 the orgina desoto, 1 for a 331 x-bell and also a 40's off a 6 banger with floor start soloniod and all 3 have the same nose on them. I don't think speed gems made this with having to take it to your local machine shop when you bought it to get more machine done to it to get a starter to fit. Seems like Bass told me about the upside down mounting to get the stock starter to work and obvisiouly that is wrong. I don't have any early chevy starters laying around the shop, I do have 1 early 283 but its a 3 bolt mount. What Chevy 2 bolt do you guys think may work?
I have the same Speed Gems bellhousing, a 6volt Chrysler 331 Starter, and an aftermarket billet steel flywheel all mounted to a '54 331. My set-up is working fine....in fact I just drove it 5000 miles without a hitch. So no, I'm not wrong. I'm not so sure that the crank flange on the Desoto sticks out as far as (or farther than) the Chrysler when compared with the bellhousing mounting surface of the block. If Desoto and Chrysler are the same, then you need a different flywheel. Mopar parts are not generally "one size fits all."
I didn't mean you were wrong, I meant I much have the wrong mix of parts. Everything I have read says all Mopar flywheels from '37 to '57 than were 146T were the same no matter what motor they were behind. Somebody will hit on it, I wish what I had would work....
Well, I'll add three possible solutions using the parts you have. How much space do you need to get the ring gear to clear the starter snout? 1. If the ring gear can be moved on the flywheel, just press it back until it clears. If it has a shoulder that it rests against, take the flywheel to a machine shop that can cut the shoulder back to where the ring gear can be pressed on further. 2. If you only need an 1/8" for clearance, and you have enough space between the flywheel and adaptor, then set-up the flywheel on a mill and cut that amount from the inside flange mounting surface. This will pull the flywheel closer to the block. If you need much more than 1/8" then I wouldn't go this route, but an 1/8" or less shouldn't hurt structural integrity too much. The flywheel should be plenty thick in this area. 3. Take the block-side of the adapter and make a tracing of where it mounts to the block. Take the tracing and cut a spacer out of plate that is thick enough to give you the clearance you need. Bolt it between the block and adaptor. Probably would be best to use plasma or waterjet to cut it. That's all I've got...other than finding another flywheel.
The ring gear is missing the snout ok, I relieved it there for enough clearance. The interference is at the large washer on the starter drive, of course if the starter mounted deeper this wouldn't be an issue. I'm going to take it back apart today and see if I cam relocate the ring gear or I may have another flywheel to try if I can get ahold of him today. Thanks for the help, BobbyD
I took some random shots of my stuff. The two adapters are a Crager on the right and a Speed Gem on the left. I think identical. I am running a Cragar. Flywheels are two 6 cyl and a V8. The V8 is in the back and has the same ring gear as the lightened 6 cyl that is clean. The rusty 6 cyl has the fine tooth gear. The starters are all course tooth txcept the one on the middle on the bottom. The starters all are sans solinoid and all fit the adapters. I tried to take a pic. of the starter on the car but it is lousey. You must use matched starters/ring gears.
Thanks Andy, lot of good info there. My starter doesn't have the long housing like the ones you have, not the snout, just the overall length. (See pic) Don't know if it makes a difference or not. I'm going over to the shop later and check tooth count and rethink everything and see if I'm overlooking the obvious.
All the Hemi starters I have look like the one BobbyD just posted a picture of. What are the ones without the solenoid off of, Andy? Also, the Speed Gems and Cragar adapters look identical, but they aren't. If you try to put the outside half of the Speed Gems on the Cragar inside half, the bolt holes are a little off....or at least they were on the adapters I have.
I was only trying to show the starter location, hole,etc on the adapters. I never tried to switch the other halves. I know the Cragar works with the starters shown and was trying to show they would work with the Speed Gem as well. The starters mostly came on engines. I picked up one extra along the way. The ones that came on my 241,270 and 315's all were as pictured. I have never had one of the short ones with the solenoid. I just do Dodges. Maybe that is an actual Chrysler starter?
Thanks again Andy.... Bass if the starter on yours is like the one I posted that can only mean 1 thing in my mind, my flywheel is wrong!
Gonna add a few more pic's to help determine what the hell is going on, the 6 banger starter (dirty one in pic) does not have the heavy washer which would allow the gear to probably engage the starter. Why would one starter have it and not the other, unless it was flywheel depth for engagement. Face of block to face of flywheel is 2 5/16". Just putting this out there again to A: solve my problem and B: Future reference in case someone else runs into this problem.
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