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More HA/GR rules questions

Discussion in 'HA/GR' started by RussKing, May 22, 2010.

  1. underdogexpress
    Joined: Jan 12, 2009
    Posts: 31

    underdogexpress
    Member
    from oshkosh wi

    Ha ha,Jerry Eckman didn't show me THAT trick!
     
  2. you guys are nuts with your talk of the "blue magic"

    I'd do it!!!!

    400 horse with 6" tires would be a tire hazing BLAST!!!!

    I've mentioned it before, but Inliners International has open records in their "flathead four or six, Fuel Altered with Nitrous" classes.
     
  3. butch nassau
    Joined: Nov 29, 2008
    Posts: 205

    butch nassau
    Member

    Alternately, you could use the most ingenious hiding place of all.

    A pro Stock racer, in the 1990s, hid the nitrous in his fire suit.

    As in, "Get out of that car we're gonn'a look for the nitrous bottle."

    "Sure, go ahead.Let me get out of your way."
     
  4. Four Banger
    Joined: Jan 6, 2009
    Posts: 214

    Four Banger
    Member

    LOL! At least NOS by itself isn't combustible. A NASCAR Winston Cup racer back in the 80's got caught with a bladder full of GASOLENE inside his fire suit!!! Quick coupler under the seat.....and shit for brains.
    Anyway, this discussion goes around and around...and gets nowhere in a hurry. Let me make something very clear, though. At no point was I advocating any rule changes. I was only trying my damndest to point out where things could end up if a loop hole doesn't get closed. Things will take a course of one direction or another, all on their own, I'm sure. When something becomes a problem, it will get figured out at that time. Oh, and by the way, the old chesnut "If this rule gets changed, I'll build a car.".......LOL! I've heard that one about a hundred times at the ovals over the years, in classes that had problems with numbers. For the record, not once did it ever work, to my knowledge!
     
  5. Old6rodder
    Joined: Jun 20, 2006
    Posts: 2,546

    Old6rodder
    Member
    from SoCal
    1. HA/GR owners group

    Ditto, and in other endeavours as well.
     
  6. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,421

    64 DODGE 440
    Member
    from so cal

    So all of the people who want to build something different...HAVE AT IT!! HERE'S YOUR CLASS.
     
  7. underdogexpress
    Joined: Jan 12, 2009
    Posts: 31

    underdogexpress
    Member
    from oshkosh wi

    Ok,you win. Its your sandbox,you make the rules. Just don't wonder where everyone went.
     
  8. c'mon Tom, i was hoping you and I could square off in this one, Mopar vs. Mopar!!!!
     
  9. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,421

    64 DODGE 440
    Member
    from so cal

    Don't own the sandbox...don't make the rules...don't really care where everyone goes.

    Just building our car from a bunch of seriously vintage bits and pieces...having fun with the build and hoping to have fun with the end result.

    The reward will be on the first pass down the strip and it won't matter if we are out front or looking at the back end of the car in the other lane.

    The journey is what it's all about...not the destination.:D
     
  10. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,421

    64 DODGE 440
    Member
    from so cal

    Be glad to Sled.:p Somebody has to play the underdog.
     
  11. Four Banger
    Joined: Jan 6, 2009
    Posts: 214

    Four Banger
    Member

    Well, dang! I thought I'd just found the coolest engine....not so. Research reveals it too, is a 62 model! I located a Jeep Tornado overhead cam engine. Neat design, cool looking too. Odd beast, only has six cam lobes. I'll bet figuring out how to grind a performance cam for THAT would be a nightmare! It WOULD look cool in a dragster, though!.
     
  12. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,421

    64 DODGE 440
    Member
    from so cal

    They also have some oiling problems in the top of the engine...found that out from a friend in the Military Vehicle restoration hobby back when we were restoring a Dodge M37B1. Probably the reason engine swaps seem pretty common in the trucks that used them.
     
  13. Four Banger
    Joined: Jan 6, 2009
    Posts: 214

    Four Banger
    Member

    I heard the same thing, but upon researching some, I discovered that the actual problems were with the first two years of that engine, and the issue was primarily oil consumtion and leakage. The overhead oiling problems were in reality linked to running the engines low on oil, as a result of the other two issues. My brother worked on the M-715's in the Army, and he confirmed this. He said the later model engines were pretty much bullet proof, but the early ones were a constant head ache. No matter, I suppose....I just hate it when certain engines get a bad rap due to minor issues. The Ford Y block and Chevy Corvair come to mind. Both had very real problems that were of very minor origins. By the way, it turns out that little Nash engine probably won't work out too well. Parts are high, and horsepower per dollar is low. Cool little engine, though. As I get to reading more and more, as far as flathead sixes go, the Mopars and Fords look pretty good. Gonna take some searching, the stuff has really dried up around here.
     
  14. esfoder
    Joined: Jan 1, 2009
    Posts: 119

    esfoder
    Member
    from Oregon

    Get out in the farm land and look around. always an old corn binder or GMC loafing in a field somewhere.

    Dusty
     
  15. Four Banger
    Joined: Jan 6, 2009
    Posts: 214

    Four Banger
    Member

    Been there, done that. The scrappers and rat rodders have pretty much picked this valley clean. What's left seems to be two ton and larger farm trucks that either aren't for sale, or are way too expensive to buy just to rob an engine. And you would be shocked at the amount of these old trucks still in use! I do know where there are some freebies, back in the mountains at an old gold mine, but that's about what they're worth! I found a 218 dodge, a 228 Jimmy, a 220 International, a 200 Ford, and a 235 Chevy, all free for the taking. Trouble is, all of them have been exposed to the weather for years, so they are going to be major rebuilds. You know....knock the pistons out with a hammer. The Chevy 235 is in a 61 Biscayne four door that is laying upside down in a ravine, with the hood closed. It MIGHT be a candidate, but the draft tube is pointing up, so water could have gotten in that way. I guess I should head back up to that mine and see....
     
  16. butch nassau
    Joined: Nov 29, 2008
    Posts: 205

    butch nassau
    Member

    Gasoline on the fire

    Okay, get ready...throw the gas!

    After following this thread for months it has become apparent that the initial choice of obsolete engines has turned this endeavor from building and racing old timey race cars into an endless search for obsure core motors.

    There is a reasonable way out of this dead dead end.

    Because the tires are such a limiting factor...I suggest that modern 300 inch V* be considered.

    The only proviso is that they run a spec two barrel carb.

    Somebody said earlier,"If you want to use 150 HP engine it makes the most sense to start with a 150 HP engine."

    A small block 305, 302 or 318 could be acquired and mated to an automatic transmission, rebuilt , painted and ready to go for as little as $300.00.

    That would lead to an explosion of H/GDs and hew very close to the original "spirit" of the class.The early and middle fifties had tons of overhead V8 powered dragsters.

    Trying to build participation on a base of long-gone core engines is futile. Witness this last two month of discussion on hair-splitting on this very thread.

    I suggest the original HA/GR people continue as they are and that the rest of the people who really do wish to build and race these small, economical nostalgia cars go to a more plentiful, and economical OHV V8 engine base.
     
  17. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,421

    64 DODGE 440
    Member
    from so cal

    Rocky already beat you to the pyromania....

    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=430809

    Long thread...but if you start from the beginning...same concept with cars already built or being built.

    Have fun.
     
  18. underdogexpress
    Joined: Jan 12, 2009
    Posts: 31

    underdogexpress
    Member
    from oshkosh wi

    Butch,these people are gonna crucify you! It would be kinda fun,like the old econo dragster thing that got out of hand. Better keep iron heads in the rule. It seems new ideas/solutions aren't welcome here. There may be some chassis cert issues though,because the cars would be a lot quicker. I have an old. Dodge poly motor that would be fun for that!
     
  19. ThingyM
    Joined: Sep 4, 2006
    Posts: 812

    ThingyM
    Member

    UDE... I'm afraid that with a 6" tire and these chassis, You would find some cars in the wall. Or God forbid, Someone hurt.. Then you could kiss this class goodbye..
     
  20. underdogexpress
    Joined: Jan 12, 2009
    Posts: 31

    underdogexpress
    Member
    from oshkosh wi

    Yeah,I think you're probably right. Was checking out the C/G dragster stuff. That really sounds like fun. And a car that can be used at a lot more tracks. It may quickly get out of control,but at least it can be used for brackets if nothing else is going on.
     
  21. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,421

    64 DODGE 440
    Member
    from so cal

    Basically, if you want to use more "modern" stuff, you need a more modern car and construction.
     
  22. Four Banger
    Joined: Jan 6, 2009
    Posts: 214

    Four Banger
    Member

    Butch, I like your idea. If engines were kept stock and as you suggest, a two barrel carb. I wouldn't be concerned about it being spec, since it seems most everyone races at tracks that run brackets, anyway. It would be an economical way to go fairly fast. My only, and I do mean ONLY beef with the older engines, is the expense. Good runners are rare, worn but easy to overhaul ones are also. I'm finding quite a few engines that are complete and cheap, but will require a major rebuild. Even to stock specs, most of these engines are quite pricey to rebuild. The one exception I've found seems to be the little Ford 144-170-200 series. Parts are cheap and plentyfull, but the big sturdy 3 speeds for these are hard to find. The light duty 3 speeds can be found, and C-4 autos are all over. In the end, people will do what they want. Their cars simply won't fit Ha/Gr rules. For many, that will be fine, since they won't be racing other Ha/Grs anyway. I think everyone around this board will still appreciate the old timey spirit of building an old fashioned dragster, and would enjoy following the build and seeing how it performs. For those who have real numbers in a given area or region, (like the California gang) the original Hamb rules can remain as they are. Even though we may disagree concerning a given set of rules, what we all seem to have in common is the love of things mechanical, having fun with old stuff, and doing it as cheaply as possible.
     
  23. butch nassau
    Joined: Nov 29, 2008
    Posts: 205

    butch nassau
    Member

    Banger and all,

    What I'm going to suggest is:

    That, if you are lurking on this board and have dreams of building a Hambster but find yourself stymied by the lack of a rules-compliant engine, you just go ahead and pull the OHV V8, auto trans and rear end out of that rusted F150 or bent Chevrolet Monte Carlo.

    Clean up these parts and begin to build your dragster.

    Then, buy some stick-on letters and label your creation as an H/GR.

    It will be a good bracket car and you will be more than welcome at any of the nostalgia events that occur around the country. You will probably compete in the "Open Dragster" class and get about a 7 second head start against a B/GD.

    The B/GD will have $14,000.00 in his car and you will have more people taking pictures of your car.
     
  24. bobw
    Joined: Mar 24, 2006
    Posts: 2,376

    bobw
    Member

    And...you might as well build it as an early slingshot. The HA/GR style rails existed for very few years as the pioneer drag racers quickly figured out plunking your butt behind the rear end was good for traction and less wind resistance.

    In my humble opinion all this recent discussion proves that HA/GR cars are really for a limited number of enthusiasts.

    So, rather than push for changes to the HA/GR "class", just build the early rail that is floating around in your head and fits your budget. As long as it meets NHRA 10.00 second and slower Altered or FED rules you can run anywhere.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2010
  25. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,421

    64 DODGE 440
    Member
    from so cal

    You hit the nail right on the head Bob. It is a class for a limited number of enthusiasts and always will be.

    Lots of people seem to feel they want to build one....but want to build outside the rules and concept.

    If they wish to do so, just build for the "Open Dragster" class as Butch put it and have fun. Actually probably a lot easier for them and cheaper too. HA/GR was never planned as a class for the masses and folks just can't seem to understand that part of the equation.
     
  26. underdogexpress
    Joined: Jan 12, 2009
    Posts: 31

    underdogexpress
    Member
    from oshkosh wi

    Bob, I think you are right. Especially for those of us who really don't have any/many HA/GR's to race against anyway.
     
  27. Old6rodder
    Joined: Jun 20, 2006
    Posts: 2,546

    Old6rodder
    Member
    from SoCal
    1. HA/GR owners group

    Perhaps even keep the full width rear end, as most of the first slingshots did. :cool:

    Yep, the whole HA/GR thing's definitely geared for a particular mindset.
     
  28. Four Banger
    Joined: Jan 6, 2009
    Posts: 214

    Four Banger
    Member

    Nothing wrong with that mindset, either. Perhaps it is best if the Ha/Gr concept stays relatively small in numbers. I think there is a certain attraction to being somewat obscure and exclusive. Let's face it....if everyone had one of these, the "cool factor" would disappear. Imagine professional chassis builders cranking these cars out for the "gold chain" crowd. Yech, I just made my own skin crawl! Please close up that engine rule so the arguement ends, and keep on doing what you're doing.
     
  29. ScottV
    Joined: Jul 18, 2009
    Posts: 818

    ScottV
    Member

    I actually talked to a guy whom was supposed to be "reasonable" on price about a basic HA/GR chassis he quoted me a price of $3295 :eek: bare without any engine, trans or rearend mounts ... I declined (and I think I threw up in my mouth a little ... but I'm OK)
     
  30. Kerrynzl
    Joined: Jun 20, 2010
    Posts: 2,906

    Kerrynzl
    Member

    3 questions and 1 suggestion

    Question 1: Body work!
    Would a T -Altered body on a HA / GR be in the spririt of the rules? [eg: like Kay Sissel's 6 cyl Altered ]
    There has been a lot of controversy about NHRA Safety rules vs Appearance of HA /GR's,
    I love the look of old T-Altereds [ without tonneau covers & wings ]
    I could easily hammer out a crude T-body and Turtle deck from alloy [ I love the look of rivots and alloy ]

    Question 2: Diffs
    What contitutes a narrowed rear end? I am considering an early Toyota Hiace van [1972] these are about 52-1/2" wide.
    I could swap in a Hi-Lux 4WD diff head [pumpkin] 4.875:1 LSD 8" ring gear with 31 spline axles [ these diffs are strong and.......Cheap! ] but would swapping diff-heads [pumpkins] breach the rules

    Question 3: Are Jap parts frowned upon? Hiace van axles are hardened, the HiLux clutches are as tough as nails

    Suggestion [ common sense ]
    Leave the rules as is! [ especially with engines ]
    Add a short title to the rules promoting , cheap racing, fun ,"in the spirit of the era" you're trying to promote.
    Anything outside of these rules you need apply for dispensation [ eg: an Auto, or a 194 chevy ]
    I am sure a free 194 chevy or a Monza engine isn't gonna threaten the wellbeing of the class [so dispensation is granted ] if you stroke the 194 to 250 [ dispensation denied ]
    I am considering a 7 bearing 200 Falcon engine, [ again dispensation granted ] , but if I want to use a 2v Aussie cyl head [ dispensation denied ]

    The idea of dispensation is to get the numbers up, and everybody to agree and have fun and be more sociable [ If you prefer scandal and controversy, take up "dog showing" ]

    If you are one of those type of racers that loves a mechanical challenge, [eg boring & stroking and highly modifiying your engine ] just make sure you engine is within the rules.
    "but don't discourage others to join, because though their cheap engines [or free] are sometimes outside the rules"

    After a few years [ when they are hooked ] they might throw some money at a "legal" race engine, they might also be happy staying where the are!

    We would complain more if we had nobody to race at all!
     

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