A couple of lines in the article about the recovered 1956 (when did they start VINS?) pickup. http://www.modbee.com/2010/06/16/1213371/jardine-56-ford-taken-in-1972.html#ixzz0s8MfPfUD "When the Modesto couple took the pickup to the Department of Motor Vehicles in Modesto two weeks ago to license and register it, a DMV official noticed the suspicious VIN number and sent them to the CHP office in Salida for a closer look." "While Bennett was thrilled to return the pickup to Voelker its rightful owner he also feels for the couple who gave up a truck that had been in their family for 11 years. "They're not happy," he said. "They're frustrated, which I can understand. Somebody's overjoyed. On the other hand, somebody's upset, and rightfully so."
Depends. If the tag you put on the body was the actual original number, you are fine, but the change on the engine block suggest fraud. If the tag you put on the body is not the original number for that body, well.. Now that engine stamping carries more weight and concern. Correct, assuming you have faith that it is the correct, original number for that body. If you KNOW that it isn't, see above. Texas statutes are written around intent to conceal the true identity of a vehicle. If this intent is clear, it's a felony. If unclear or not present, the car becomes questionable and subject to verification, perhaps a new state assigned vin or destroyed. I have never heard of any destroyed that weren't proven stolen. It is even possible for those to be restored to good standing, depending on the disposition of the rightful owner.
Why worry, it had a V6! Ptuui! You sure enough dodged a bullet for the wrong reasons, let the legal hounds argue the politics and issues but i'll advise you to never admit to almost buying a 'hot rod' with a modern V6. That'd be a conversation stopper.
Thanks I needed that. Do you think I need to stamp the frame too, or is the firewall tag good enough?
I purchased a Chevy PU having no intention of using the frame. I was handed a title that the seller told me matched the truck, though the body tag was gone and the frame badly corroded. To MY knowledge, I have the correct title for my truck, but now have constructed a new frame and will purchase a new body tag. I will make every effort to restore the original identification markings to their original state. That means a reproduction body tag stamped with the correct numbers, mounted in the correct location and, in my case, stamping the frame with the correct numbers in the correct location. This exercise has two values. First, it makes it unlikely that the marking will be called into dobt, Second, it demonstrates my efforts to retain the original identity of my truck. See where I'm going with that?
I bought a Henry J that was titled in Virginia and transfered it to Maryland. The number on the title was the number off of the engine plate. There was no reference on the title of the intact original serial number on the door frame or the cowl. My problem was that I wanted to drop a V8 in it and when I did I would lose any number that matched the title. I contacted MVA who told me I would have to haul the car to the one and only MVA location that has a "garage" and if it checked out with the inspectors they would issue a reconstructed vehicle number. The inspectors crawled all over the car and ran all the numbers and found no stolen reports. They said, however, that they couldn't issue a number plate because there might be a Henry J out there registered to the serial number on my door frame. They suuggested I do a title search in Virginia (not cheap) which I did. It came up empty. Back to MD MVA who still wouldn't issue a number plate based on the same original reason. They did however give me a letter stating that I brought the car to them for inspection and they found nothing stolen. They told me to keep the letter with the car at all times and "don't lose it because we don't keep records of the letter". Some years ago I built a big block Chevy powered trike. I sent some county in a southern State my receipts for parts which were just for the after market front forks handle bars, etc. The receipt indicated that the front forks were reproduction 1950 Harley Davidson. They allowed me to submit my own serial number. I used the number on the 454 Chevy block. They sent me a title for a 1950 Harley Davidson. I sat on it for a month and then had it transferred to Maryland. All legal at the time. I understand they are starting to scrutinize titles from certain States these days, so, I don't know if that would still fly.
Some years back my county sent a couple of their officers to an FBI class on VIN numbers. When they got back they were busting motorcycles like it was going out of style. Quite a few of my buddies found out that they bought (in good faith) bikes with altered numbers. Certain year Harleys stamped a letter or two deliberately crooked. Guys doing number jobs did their best to keep everything in line which was the give-away. Sometimes the cops would acid test. If they found altered numbers they confiscated the bike and sent the cases to the FBI to be X-rayed. If they could raise the old number the charge went from Receiving Stolen Property to Grand Theft. As I understand it some vehicles like Corvettes have numbers in secret places known only to cops and a select few. More modern cars show the serial number in the computer. Who knows where a chip may be these days. Moral of the story: A bad rivet can make or break your number job.
I bought an old truck from a yard a couple of years ago, no numbers no nothing, I asked myself.. should I buy a title on the HAMB, and a set of star punches and numbers or what? Well.. I have a few friends in law enforcement so I asked them, whats the gig? Now these are not stupid guys, the one is on bomb and arson and the other is a narcotics detective, the simple answer was its illegal, just like growing dope or making shine or B and E, if you have a nice life and you get caught you wont have a nice life after you get caught, by the time you get done with court and costs and lost wages and reputation it will cost you 200 grand easy, it costs 3 grand to bond it, so they asked me, Are you lazy or stupid? You dont want to wait a couple of months to do it legal, or are you cheap and dont want spend the 3 grand or do you think that the cops are stupid? They got a couple of guys on the force that have been doing only vins for 20 years each, thats where all the great stuff at auction comes from, guys that think theyre smarter than the cops. So i bought my bond and titled my car that way, I wont be making my own numbers, nor will I be printing money, running girls, numbers, dealing Etc, If you have any sort of a quality of life style that requires you to not be incarcerated I only urge you to ask yourself if its worth the loss of it for 3 grand before you start down this road.
The engine still has it's original number with the Model A number added, and the body tag is the original number.
so i live up in BC and i'm sure the rules are different, but for the guys in the states, what if all you do is buy a bunch of parts over the course of a few years, a door here and a door there, a roof, different guarters, a cowl with no firewall, and build your own frame, nothing ever had a number, then what do you do?
Dude I am not trying to make you look like an idiot here, But V.I.N stands for Vehicle Identification Number And the serial number as you call it is what the state and law enforcment use to idenify that vehicle...So as far as ownership goes Yes they are indeed the same thing!!!.....Not trying to sound rude but your comment makes you sound like one of these so called Know it all model A club guys.....And I am so sick of them getting together and making up shit and printing it in books. None of them were even there when the cars were being made.....I mean they spend tons of money putting a model A back to what they call original....(By todays judging standards) and it will have a 10,000.00 mirrior finish paint job on it.....None of fords production cars were that nice!!...If the model A club wants their cars to be as nice as they were when they come off the assembly line, Then they should all get together and built about 370 of them in a 8 hour shift....then and only then will they be the way ford made them....LOL
This is hot topic for every DMV in every state... some are easy, some are less so. The best thing to do is KNOW your State/County rules for registering of an early car. Keep abreast of any changes that may affect you. Here (Hawaii), we can have title issued in our name without the vehicle running, but must provide proof of ownership. (Signed title by seller or sellers beneficiary or agent) You transfer the title and then surrender the plates. This puts the ownership of the vehicle in your name, and no taxes are paid until you are ready to run the vehicle. Here is the kicker: All vehicles pre-1982 have Serial Numbers of less than the current 17 digit sequence. Because of this, all vehicles prior to the 1982 model year must be verified for serial number/identification number/whatever. Vehicles previously registered in Hawaii with existing proof of registration make it a little easier, but still not a walk in the park. All of this tightening of the rules is due to those places that supplied serial numbers and title work for unseen vehicles. Make sure you can title what you have...
Depends on your state. Some states will accept a pencil-etch or a photo as proof of the serial number/VIN. In theory, you could get a registration for a bare frame, or just a loose tag, when that's acceptable proof. I personally have a NYS transferrable registration for a 1950 Chevrolet 2dr, for a car I bought with no paperwork whatsoever. NY makes it easy, if you do it the right way with the right forms - the only catches are that #1 you have to insure and register the car to get one, and pay the sales tax on the purchase price at that time, and #2 you get a nontransferrable that day - the local office sends it to Albany where presumably they run the number on the hot lists. If the serial turns up already in use in NY, they'll catch that right there at the computer terminal. It's so easy I don't understand why guys try to sell old NYS registrations in NY - sure, they work a little easier, but if you ever want to sell it you have a problem because the numbers don't match. And I don't understand why dumbasses use them on their cars in other states either. You renewed those annually until around 1990 or so, then they went to bi-annually. Suppose a guy had a car for 10 years, then junked it with some old farmer who collected cars on the side? Meanwhile each time he got a new one he put the old one in a drawer somewhere and forgot them. Then 5 years ago someone buys all 10 at an estate sale and sells them online. There could be 10 different cars running around using the same VIN. Meanwhile, someone finds the car and puts it back on the road here in NY - you have 11. Sooner or later that shit is going to hit the fan. What it all boils down to is you have to know your state's regs better than your motor vehicle office people do, find out what will fly and what won't, and be sure what you buy either has the right stuff with it, or you can get it registered/titled okay without it. And if you're in a state where they inspect for serial numbers, then you better make sure the tags or stamps are either correct, or indistinguishable from correct markings. I'm sure there are tons of cars out there with just plain switched tags - 55-57 Chevys they seem to be glued on. My '60 Pontiac just fell off one day when I opened the door. 60-64 or so Mopars are the same way. How many Fords have just a tag on the left door, or on the glovebox door? And I've seen old ones with fairly plain looking rivets holding them on, too. Until 1998 or so it was very hard in NY to replace a lost registration, it used to be easier to just find a clunker and swap 'em, and with so many not readily visible outside the car, you had to really be getting the police proctology exam on the side of the road for them to worry about it. So I'm sure more than a few are still out there somewhere. Hell, watch the original Gone In 60 Seconds for a real schooling on how they did it.
Here's a follow up on VIN tags listed on OldCars Weekly. Notice - observant, knowledgeable cops spotted missing tags, confiscated cars, and a shop under investigation. Who needs that hassle? http://www.oldcarsweekly.com/article/OK-car-shop-investigated-for-VIN-fraud/
Never looked into the Dynacorn and VIN swaping issue... The company CLAIMS to use the original body and does a complete restoration. If they are using the Dynacorn body to replace a totalled, rusted hulk, I would think they need to disclose it as a rebody.
As an insurance appraiser, there are some things that need to be pointed out. The first thing I do when I inspect a vehicle for the insurance company is document and photograph the serial number. This is done on every car. And if the car doesn't have a visible number, this is documented too. ***Vehicle Indentification Numbers (VIN) did not become VIN's until 1981. This is a world wide standard issued by the International Orginization for Standardization (ISO) in 1979 and 1980. EVERYTHING BEFORE THIS IS A SERIAL NUMBER! After 1980, every car, whether it was built in the US, Japan, England, Germany or any other country, has used the same standard.*** I have found serial number issues on cars, the last two being Novas. And it makes no difference if the number listed on the title matches the number on the car if the number on the car is for a Chevelle (when it's a Nova). Many cars going back into the 30's and 40's up until today have secondary tags, like GM cowl tags or the door tags showing trim and options. I looked at a '70 Nova that the previous owner had painted over the serial number so that it wasn't readable. I'm guessing the previous owner didn't have the title and just want to use the title from another Nova. The number that was registered listed the car as a V8. The cowl tag said it was a 6 cylinder car. Last I heard, the car and the claim was being investigated by the insurance company's SIU. Why does the insurance company care? If I had totaled that Nova, it would have been titled to the insurance company before being auctioned off with a clean or salvage title. If the the new owner finds out that the title and the car don't match, the insurance company is on the hook to either by it back or compensate the buyer. They'll probably also have things to explain to that states DMV themselves. I think the OP did the right thing. Unless you can document the origins of the car and the number listed on it, there is the potential for issues that can get claims denied, cars impound and other similar stuff. If you have a frame that matches your title, I would cut the number out of the frame and either; 1) Stamp that number on your replacement frame and keep the original cut out number with all of your paperwork. 2) Trim and weld the old section of frame on top or flush on the new frame. If you have a title issued from an engine number, I wouldn't touch the car without the original engine unless the car has a definite body serial number. Cars can usually have new titles issued after the vehicle inspection. An early Cadillac will have issues if the engine isn't there because the serial number plate is attached to the engine. I might be wrong, but I believe the plates are removeable, but not many did in cases of engine swaps. Also keep in mind that 99.9% of the car is a service part. By that, I mean that if I have to replace a frame on a 2007 Silverado or F-150 pick up because of a car accident, I can have a used frame or new frame installed, and VIN numbers don't get stamped on the replacement part. I can replace instrument panels, cowls sections, hinge pillars and any other piece on the car. And if necessary, I can pull the VIN off the vehicle and reinstall this because the vehicle is not being misrepresented. Cars from the 20's and 30's would have the frame replaced due to accidents as well. The frame is a service part. I've seen a few '32 style frames that were not stamped at all (service part). I'm sure that there are plenty of cars with no serial number with the vehicles original title. What is common place is using an 'unrelated' title on a car with no serial number. This misrepresents the vehicle and is illegal. The Dynacorn cars were misrepresented and that is illegal. There are numerous cars that don't have one part originally made by Ford that use Ford serial numbers. In my mind this is illegal. A car with a TCI frame and a Brookville body should have a state issued title and serial number. It is not illegal to pull the serial number plate (tag, cowl tag, etc.) if you are restoring the car. Putting that number on another car gets you quality time at the big house. The serial number plate and cowl tag on my Studebaker are off of the body shell. Once the car is painted they will go back on. And in case I had any law folks who ask questions, I have pictures, build sheets and everything else I need to document the vehicle. There has been quite a few instances of cars being found 20 or 30 years after being stolen recently, and being returned to it's original owner. How would you like to have a car you put $20K or $30K into taken from you and given to someone else? Times have changed. 50 or 60 years ago you could have restored a car from pieces and not have had a problem titling the car. DMV's were used to these cars. The current DMV personel know nothing other than the current VIN system. Anything else blows their mind. This is also true with most cops. If there isn't a 'VIN' on the dash, they are suspicious of all kinds of stuff. Every state is different. Every state will have different requirements for registering and titling a vehicle, especially one from 'out of state'. Many places don't get the 'we don't issue titles on old cars' way of thinking like NY or GA does. Know what you are buying. Document what you are buying. Check on what you are buying. Check with your state with what you are buying. And have all your paperwork together and know where your numbers are on your car before buying.
Hawaii Law has created a "Special Interest Vehicle" Option, primarily designed for kit-cars/street rods, but they have to resemble a vehicle manufactured before 1968 (or 12/67 or prior) to qualify. That could be applied to a Dynacorn 67 Camaro/Mustang or early truck body, but would not apply to the '68 or '69 or later cars because of the wording. GM considers the Dynacorn body and official GM licensed rust-repair part, but how do you legally put the serial number on the new body without violating federal law?
<TABLE><CAPTION>I found this on the MSN website. It might explain why New Mexico, among others, is getting serious about VIN registration. It's just a quick ride, and you're over the border. </CAPTION><TBODY><TR><TH colSpan=8>Top 10 auto theft capitals</TH></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>2009 rank </TD><TD>Metro area </TD><TD>2009 </TD><TD> </TD><TD>2008 </TD><TD> </TD><TD>2007 </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD>Thefts </TD><TD>Rate* </TD><TD>Thefts </TD><TD>Rate* </TD><TD>Thefts </TD><TD>Rate* </TD></TR><TR><TD>1 </TD><TD>Laredo, Texas </TD><TD>1,792 </TD><TD>742 </TD><TD>1,960 </TD><TD>831 </TD><TD>1,914 </TD><TD>829 </TD></TR><TR><TD>2 </TD><TD>Modesto, Calif. </TD><TD>3,712 </TD><TD>727 </TD><TD>4,235 </TD><TD>835 </TD><TD>5,358 </TD><TD>1,058 </TD></TR><TR><TD>3 </TD><TD>Bakersfield, Calif. </TD><TD>5,530 </TD><TD>685 </TD><TD>5,918 </TD><TD>742 </TD><TD>6,013 </TD><TD>766 </TD></TR><TR><TD>4 </TD><TD>Stockton, Calif. </TD><TD>4,479 </TD><TD>664 </TD><TD>4,963 </TD><TD>742 </TD><TD>5,649 </TD><TD>849 </TD></TR><TR><TD>5 </TD><TD>Fresno, Calif. </TD><TD>5,875 </TD><TD>642 </TD><TD>6,533 </TD><TD>723 </TD><TD>7,207 </TD><TD>810 </TD></TR><TR><TD>6 </TD><TD>Yakima, Wash. </TD><TD>1,525 </TD><TD>638 </TD><TD>1,828 </TD><TD>778 </TD><TD>1,898 </TD><TD>817 </TD></TR><TR><TD>7 </TD><TD>San Francisco-Oakland </TD><TD>26,374 </TD><TD>611 </TD><TD>30,735 </TD><TD>721 </TD><TD>34,996 </TD><TD>833 </TD></TR><TR><TD>8 </TD><TD>Visalia-Porterville, Calif. </TD><TD>2,440 </TD><TD>568 </TD><TD>3,017 </TD><TD>714 </TD><TD>3,312 </TD><TD>796 </TD></TR><TR><TD>9 </TD><TD>Las Vegas-Paradise, Nev. </TD><TD>10,706 </TD><TD>563 </TD><TD>13,662 </TD><TD>727 </TD><TD>19,031 </TD><TD>1,035 </TD></TR><TR><TD>10 </TD><TD>Albuquerque, N.M. </TD><TD>4,815 </TD><TD>561 </TD><TD>6,182 </TD><TD>730 </TD><TD>6,845 </TD><TD>820 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
I have a 1950 Chevy Truck on a 1988 Ford E350 frame. I had the title for both. I titled it as a 1950 Chevy. Anyone would recognize it as a 1950 chevy! NO ONE would recognize it as a 1988 Ford Van! Is it technically correct? Probably not. But if this is my biggest sin, I guess I am destine to purgatory.
Dang this sure is a long running thread just because this guy thinks his cop friend is the golden guru on everything,missed out on a good deal just trying to be Mr Perfect.You"ll never see that deal again for a Studebaker.
Actually having title for BOTH source vehicles is the way to go, IMHO. Over the years, people change frames..... nothing says the frame HAS to stay with the vehicle all its life. Stuff happens. being able to support your claim that the frame is from _____ vehicle and here is the title should cover all doubts... but with people recreating musclecars, etc with various parts, frame numbers dont match body numbers, etc. The body number is most commonly recognized as the VIN... hidden vins are used to determine if the body tag has been moved to another body based on frame number... but no one ever mentions that the frame may have been moved from under the body! I put a Chevelle convertible frame under my Chevelle hardtop because the frame is more rigid as it is not open channel down the center of the car. I made it known that was done when I sold the car... and provided documentation of how I acquired the car the frame came from... (It was a police siezure vehicle) So... Dynacorn bodies are OK to be used in most cases as long as you arent transplanting the VIN onto that body?
The issue with the Dynacorn was that they were passing these off as something they weren't...original. Seriously, the only two things I think the Feds can get you for are fraud (passing the car off as something it's not) and tax issues (evading sales taxes like Boyd Coddington did). I agree that the body is a service part. The answer, to the above question is...Quietly. Not being a smart ass, but some police people go overboard. You could replace every panel piece by piece, and they'd have no problem. Replace the assembly and... Frames are the same way. It's a service part. Insurance companies swap these out all the time with used frames and no one looks for hidden VINs. My Studebaker has the last 6 of the serial number stamped on the frame. But most Lark frames would swap pretty easily. Frames rust and they are replaced. There are accidents and frames are replaced. This isn't an issue. One thing about the shop using Dynacorn Mustang bodies to rebuild Shelby's from the grave. Ford stamped the serial number on the left side inner apron and Shelby riveted his own number over the top of the Ford number. I'm not familiar enough to know what Shelby did with the Data Plate on the left door. Did he leave the Ford plate or replace it with his? Many cars were damaged in collisions and when the apron was replaced, the serial number was gone. There are a lot of factors that probably contributed to this and I wish I knew someone with the FBI or whoever was involved to ask that question.
I hear you... but if you order a Dynacorn body and subsequently order a pair of rosette rivets off the internet, you'd surely attract some attention. I have a friend who is a skilled collision repair guy... I've watched him repair frame sections and even swap a couple of complete frames. For the sake of Dynacorn's Camaro bodies... they still require a subframe and other pieces to complete the chassis of the vehicle. The Mustangs only require suspension pieces... the unibody is complete. IMHO if the company noted that the cars were re-creations (clones) and not advertised as starting as original cars being "Fully restored" I dont think they would have encountered the problems they are now facing.
When using the term "Know It All", the first letter in each of the words should be capitalized. Too effin funny!
Well, here is how it went for me yesterday at AAA registering my 29 coupe. Went in, gave them the old "signed off" title. The gal says that we probably should not have driven the car in because it was not currently registered. Duly noted, thank you Ma'am. We go out to verify VIN, open the hood and show here the engine serial number is which matches paperwork. Explain where the chassis vin is and that she won't be able to see it. We go back in, pays our dough and now I have a registered car and plates. Then the insurance saleman comes by and shows me how I can buy full coverage with no deductible, stated value insurance for $108.00 per year. All in all, a very good day.
Different ways, here's one way it's done in Colorado, an assigned VIN. Here's the link. http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellit...goBlobs&blobwhere=1191400692165&ssbinary=true
Damn, some of you guys get your panties in a wad when discussing a "Vehicle Identification Number" versus an "Engine Number", "Vehicle Number" or "Chassis Number". Guess what? ALL are NUMBERS used to IDENTIFY a VEHICLE, so no matter how you try to slice, dice, and parse, ALL are VINs in one form or another. All of them identify a vehicle. Whether it is just four digits, or the modern seventeen digits, or whatever in between, all perform the very SAME function. Kindly deal with that salient fact, and move on. Enjoy the day.
The Jalopy Journal
