well here's the thing, the title states it's a 31, however the vin on the title indicates a 30. anyway i went and checked the engine number and it matches the title so...........what if the frame also matches? i guess if that's the case then it has the wrong body? i probably should pull it and check, huh?
It could simply be that the database is wrong, too. The CA DMV database is riddled with errors from when they transferred some records from paper to digital.
Is it possible someone "needed" a number for their car, guessed, and by sheer coincedence - or by having an old motor block laying around - came up with the number on your title? From what I read about titles in Ohio, they're done seperately from the BMV and registration in each county, so I suppose it's possible they could keep records longer than say here in NY (where inactive numbers go out of the system after about 7 years), but it seems hard to believe if he titled it in 1978 and someone else titled it before him, that they'd have older records at their immediate disposal to tell you about. You might want to go back and just ask them if their info is dated before, or after, 1986 when your stepdad had the car on the road. If it's after, then it's likely someone else is using the number fraudulently. In any case, you're going to need to verify both the numbers on the car, the frame number on the left frame rail and the engine number. As for the year issue, it's hard to say what's happened in 80 years, if someone swapped motors, frames, bodies, and filled out the forms different the last time it was titled and just told them it was an error.
I just finished pulling a tudor body - it ain't something you want to do just to satisfy somebody elses' curiousity. The OP thought it'd take about an hour - have at it. The problem you'll find is that all the body stuff is interconnected, cab to fender to skirt to running board to pedals to floor board etc. The vin# is located right at the left body mount on top of the frame, not like you can stick a wrecking bar in between body and frame rail and lift it a couple inches to read it. Nasty business.
As rough as it might be, better it be done now, than by or at the behest of the authorities. In my state, they will impound the car and do it for you, if you want to go that route. If there is a dispute, you get to prove you are right. You are assumed wrong until proven guilty. It is tantamount to unlawful seizure, but there it is. You will need to lawyer up in that case, because you can and might be charged with a felony. Better have a receipt for every single part, nut, bolt, and washer, too. The CHP VIN inspectors know where the all of numbers are located on a Model A. I would rather take the nasty business of pulling an A body, then the nasty business of tangling with the law.
i will get some friends together and i have a shop so tools aren't a problem. we will pull the body and find the vin, i don't care if it takes us all night. i'm eventually putting a flathead v8 in this car and want to be sure it's all squared away long before that happens. once again thanks for the help, it's a new world for me with a car this old.
Exactly!... Hawaii DMV uses frame serial number, or whatever VIN is OE for each year... they do not use motor number because a motor can be removed, and placed into another vehicle... If a state uses motor number for registration purposes, there is nothing to say that motor wasnt sold, installed, reg'd, removed and sold again! Good luck in your quest!
All model A's,were stamped on the frame left side,under where the cowel bolts on.If you find a number on the frontof frame by engine,someone else put it on there not ford.Replacement engines came with no no's so you cant rely on eng'no'.The whole thing is big bag of worms.
Back in the day we bought a lot of A motors with the title. We used the serial number on the engine as the VIN when applying for the title transfer. I suspect that is what happened here and the frame number, even if it is still there isn't going to match. Sorry about that. Don't be surprised that when you lift the body those numbers are gone. If they are gone you can buy a set of stamps and I would stamp the engine number there and be done with it.
P S .I foregot to mention.The cowel assembly will lift up by itself if it has not been welded to the rear sub frame.Ford made them as seperate parts.I allways cut ahole just big enough to see the no'in the front subframe.It saves alot of hassel.
i live in calif., i'm in a model a club, and have 3 model As , we have to do whatever it takes to uncover the frame # ( on top of frame, on driver side, where the firewall meets the frame area), some people had the forsight to restamp that number on the botton of the frame, in the same area, but don't count on that. if you go to AAA auto club, they may be able to help you reregister the car. (go to them before you pull the body). Good luck
Somebody pulled you vin out of thin air for their own project and stamped it out on a tag then traced it and then brought it to the DMV. Hope all your numbers match. If they do whats going to happen to the other guy with the same VIN?
No. I wouldn't. The motor number on the motor and title makes it a vehicle, even if somebody put that motor on a wheelbarrow. It's still a valid title because the motor number matches the title. People switch motors and frames all the time, which is perfectly legal as long as they don't ALTER the original numbers.... I think you're over-thinking the situation. If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying the Motor Number is in the block of numbers Ford Motor company lists show for 1930. It is a known fact that a DMV in year 1931 would have titled a new car even if it was manufactured, serial numbered, in 1930 could have been sold as a new car in 1931 and titled accordingly. UNLESS A THIRD PARTY CONTESTS OWNERSHIP, PROVING YOU HAVE IN SOME WAY COMMITTED FRAUD, YOU HAVE A VALID TITLE. The only practical purpose you might have in checking the number stamped on the frame would to be, iF they match, is to have a more valuable asset so far as a Model A collector would want. MATCHING NUMBERS on frame, motor, and title; Equal higher value at auction. MATCHING NUMBERS on title and frame or motor only; Establish ownership. IN 99% OF THE POSSIBLE SCENARIOS, ON MY CAR, AND EVERYBODY ELSES CAR IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD, ONLY A HANDFUL HAVE THE SITUATION WHERE THE MOTOR NUMBER/BODY NUMBER/TITLE NUMBER MATCH. THE GREAT MAJORITY HAVE ONLY TWO MATCHING. NO STATE THAT I KNOW OF REQUIRES THAT ALL THREE MATCH....................... Every DMV employee with half a brain knows that Model A Fords were titled using THE MOTOR NUMBER!!!
If they match, you have a family heirloom too valuable to make into a hot rod. Model A frames are a dime a dozen. If they don't match, rod-it!!!
Thinking along these lines you are saying it is possible to have 3 separate vehicles with the same serial number? One with body, one with frame and one with engine from one car? That cant be right. Only one title should ever be issued to a certain serial number, regardless of state, country, county etc. as the manufaturer only built ONE vehicle bearing each serial number, right? The body and chassis make the vehicle, and any engine can (and has) been placed between the rails, whatever the reason. With the advent of aftermarket Chassis for vehicles, that makes the situation more prevalent unless the movement of parts from the original vehicle is documented. HI looks at Body Serial Number or VIN as it was later called. Chassis VIN inspections are used to validate authenticity in certain situations where the body number cannot be ascertained.
No, I didn't say that. You did. Apparently to pose a scenario to support your disagreement with me? Possible? Aside from the FACT that 'thinking along those lines' is the way it is......... Is it possible to have duplicates? Yep, I guess.... But I don't give a shit if somebody else has a car with the same VIN as mine. I have a good title issued by the state of Colorado, and they don't make mistakes........
Its more being devils advocate than making up a situation.. but since youre reading my mind, how about this: You dont give a ____ about the possibility that someone else may have the same VIN for another vehicle... now supposed that vehicle just happens to show up in CO? NO WAY will they issue two titles for two different vehicles bearing the same ID numbers, right? One would have to be incorrect, or fraudulent right? They may have done it 54 years ago, but I can tell you for sure, that at current, if you cannot produce documentation of ownership, and a corresponding serial number for that ownership, on the correct vehicle, you will not get that vehicle registered here. And why are you showing a picture of a CO title when you mentioned HI? ANY vehicle in the State of Hawaii built 1981 and below (pre-17 digit VIN) is now required to go through the VIN (serial number) verification process. The title and serial number must match and be in the correct location and fastened with the correct fasteners. This is just part of the drama we have to deal with here. When my '46 was shipped to HI back in '89 the CA title indicated engine number. Even then, as Hawaii no longer recognized Engine number for titling purposes, the vehicle required a VIN identification correlating the Engine number to the Body number to retitle the vehicle here using the Body number as the serial number for title and registration purposes. Now, this vehicle was driven here for 3 years, then parked, since '92, moved a few times and last parked in 06 until I found it where it was. The vehicle was untaxed with plates left on it all these years. Fortunately after about 5 years, the late taxes go away... The bad side is now, to transfer the title into my name, the car must have the serial number verified yet again. Not a big deal, except there is only one place on O'ahu to do it, and it must be verified prior to titling the vehicle in my name... This means making the appointment, transporting the vehicle there (trailer, flatbed, car carrier, etc), getting the serial number verified and finally being able to get in line at the DMV to actually do the title issuance... So.. how about we step up to current times to continue this discussion?... This is not about how it was done 80 years ago, of even 50 or 30 years ago. Its what the requirements are at current to tag and title a vehicle. These vary from state to state as we all know and that can be a royal pain.
Don't get too exited Rob, 29Nash has been known to argue with fence posts about how deep they are stuck in the ground before. Tripmotors the main thing right now is that the vins match the title. There is a fair chance that the 31 body was stuck on a 30 frame way back when. According to what my dad had told me it was fairly common to go to the wrecking yard and buy a nicer body to put on your chassis back then. Some even swapped sedan bodys on coupe or other chassis so the family could all ride inside out of the weather. If someone did the wheel of fortune thing when they picked a vin number to stamp on their frame and it happens to match the one on your block and frame, that's their problem Your vin can be traced back to the date of the title and probably beyond so I don't see a problem for you. Worse case is that someone actually has the frame that originally came with that engine if it isn't under the car now. Also it is well known that Henry Ford didn't waste anything so that may actually be what should have been a 1930 engine and frame under the 1931 body from the factory.
TODAY.......... if I brought that car to HI with that title in my meat hooks, they would accept it as proof of ownership and the new title would carry that MOTOR NUMBERXXXXXX but the words MOTOR NUMBER would be changed to read VINXXXXXX.......... Model A's don't have serial numbers fastened with fasteners. Even when sold, the (ORIGINAL MOTOR NUMBER) is the same when it's sold and the new title changes to VIN, Ie-- MOTOR NUMBER A2222444 changes to VIN A2222444.
Dumb question: Was Ohio ever one of those states that used motor numbers as the VIN for registration purposes? If so, then you just need to get an inspector to verify the frame number and update the paperwork, I would imagine.
I have seen several cars brought to Hawaii with a title in hand, If there is no way to correlate that title to the car, youre S-O-L. You may hold title to the car but if you cant prove the car you brought here corresponds to the documents, you're screwed, hence the serial number verification. Tell you what... you ship the car here, if you can get it inspected, titled and tag'd here (Hawaii title and Registration) as what you say it is currently titled in CO as, I'll pay the shipping. If not, you leave me the car... Deal? Thanks for the tip... I've read the discussion board for a while and moderate a few as well. Argue for the sake of arguing.. makes for good conversation... I tried 3 years ago to get a title for a pair of display vehicles (28 Chevy truck and a 30 Chevy Sedan) They had no title, and I would only be issued bill of sale... never reg'd in HI, never intended to... no drivetrains... just rollers... both in good shape but they had display racks built into the backs... gotta find the pics... Looked for all I could...asked a GOOD source at DMV and although it could have been done, it would require title search nationwide to assure it wasnt stolen before HI could ever issue a title. could take years to accomplish all that.. so I let them go... My '46 is complete fortunately, and was registered here... so that makes life a little easier...
Apparently YOU have never delt with California Police, CHP, Or DMV. It doesent take a Thief, Lauderer or a Matching engine #, The CHP & DMV here KNOW there is a frame # and if they feel the Need you WILL unbolt the body. And Yes, I HAVE a Buddy that had this happen ... Yes the car did end up being Stolen, It wasent a Model "A" so the VIN on the Fire wall wasent the clue. '49 Ford has a VIN on the firewall. Was a Shitty deal as he bought the car from someone & got Screwed. You act as if I am New to this Rodeo, I been down the Road a few times and i have Never had a problem registering a Car Like 95% of the people on this board Crying about how to Register somthing. Now i get You Crying that i try to give the guy a Clue befor Shit hits the Fan. JeeeZus, This isnt LA LA Land Buddy ... When DMV or Police are involved.. EVERYONE IS SUSPECT !
When I first started boxing and working on my model a frame I looked everywhere and could not find a serial # under all that rust even blasted and could not find it.It was pitted too. Just stamped #'s that match the title in the frame. Mine was pieced together hard to find out what went with what. Its a 80yr old car, you will be lucky if you have title #'s matching stamped frames or motors if not. Use your imagination and you can get it titled.
LOL.. yup.. Guilty until proven innocent! I spend more time at DMV than a lot of the title companies that do it as a business... difference is I do it for friends and I do it for the love of the auto hobby.
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