Moot point? Guess I didn't make my self clear. On a car that never had a VIN (model A) NM want's to see an "official" state issued VIN. They shade of grey come in when you have a out of state title with a number on the car such as the stamped Briggs body tag. Who's to say that wasn't a "state" issued VIN? Maybe not all states have their own VIN tags like we do. And, yes, if I had a title with matching numbers on a car ( and it's a clean number) and NM wanted to impound it because they "think" it's bogus I'd fight them, with a lawyer if nessasary. If I understand it right, Federal law says a state must accept anothers states title as legal. Unfortunately, here in NM our DMV has this policy your guilty till you prove yourself innocent when it comes to title issues. If the VIN inspector that gave Studearch his advice is the guy I think it is he needs to know that guy seems to be using his VIN inspector authority to be on a mission to find (create) bad titles. He wouldn't except a factory tag or title on a 54 Ford F-100 I was titleing because it was on the glovebox door, suggested I "might" had swaped the door out. Nevermind the aged patinaed paint on the glovebox door matched the dash and the rest of the truck! You just got to find the people with commen logic to get things through here.
Relative to your statement that Model A bodies were never numbered the following is the Model A Ford Club list of Model A body numbers: http://mafca.com/data_bodynumbers.html These numbers were used to track bodies from subcontractors to Ford and were not used for registration. This is the reproduction tag that attached in the first picture of this thread (with a number stamped in) Bodies made by Ford did not have numbers. Numbers were also sometimes stamped into the sill of the body indicating where it was made and its serial number. Charlie Stephens
If you want to get pickey I should have said that it is my understanding that this number was not intended to be used for regristation. I also know from first hand information that it has been used before by the DMV but it should not have been (at least in California). Charlie Stephens
"Relative to your statement that Model A bodies were never numbered the following is the Model A Ford Club list of Model A body numbers:" Stop and read! Good Lord...those are MODEL NUMBERS designating basic year group and body style, mostly useful so the parts man could order the proper rear fender for a customer...so EVERY '30-31 Ford coupe of the general 5W type was designated 45-B just for car ordering and parts identification so the dealer could reliably specify what he was getting. Further, the number was NOT on the car anywhere, and beyond that it has nothing to do with even the Briggs body-build sequence tag misused above! Every Ford ever made was designated by a body style designation, which might have been shared with as many as a million others of its kind...and surely any clerk who would accept B-45 as a serial number would have to be towards the bottom of a very bad part of the gene pool. Not that there aren't dumb clerks out there...I know of a '41 Ford registered to the part number of its front crossmember, and almost understandable level of dunbness, but still that is a car with TROUBLE in its future.
Bruce, <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o> </o> I took your advice. I stopped and I read. I agree that the table and preceding text was definitely not an introduction to body numbers. You are 100% correct that the first column is model numbers. The inclusive list includes all model numbers. Now I would like to give you some advice. Read and don’t stop! Good Lord… there are more columns to the table. The second column shows the builder of the body. Ford built bodies did not have a tag. The third column is the S/N prefix stamped into the body number plate (or as you probably more correctly refer to it as the “body build sequence tag”. The final column shows the Approximate # Produced probably to enable a person to get an idea from his tag when his body was built. At this point I will add that I am not an expert on these tags and have never owned a Model A that came from the factory with a tag. If there are errors in this table I am not smart enough to find them. If you will read my earlier posts you will see that I in no way implied that this tag was the VIN (in fact even was jumped on for saying it was not used as a VIN, someone knew of a specific case where it was). <o> </o> Charlie Stephens<o></o>
Jesus guys, its hard to know how to address this, Ive gotten my ass kicked buying re tagged cars. Some states really dont care what you do, some states really do. If you live in a state that really does you better know it, if you live in a state that could care less understand that not all states are the same. Lets use Illinois, shes mine and she is a tough mutha, in Illinois they are checking all of this shit, making us bond anything that stinks at all, know it. In a state that requires a title they take them seriously, changing numbers is illegal, using fake titles is illegal, know it. Before you buy a car know it, all the numbers what they should be where they should be. If it smells like shit it most likely is, you dont need to "taste". You all are big boys now, you do what you want, you know right and wrong. You think you can pull the shit over a trained state trooper, OK maybe. but know it, I dont like see'in you boys in the prisons, not worth it over stampin numbers on tin.
As sevreal have pointed out here...the VIN on a model A was stamped in 2 places, On the left side frame rail and on the engine...No Vin number was on the body accept the production number, And as far as titleing your car the production number doesn't mean anything....that tag is bogus...I see them all the time on guys cars..They are not legit...No matter which model A seller you buy them from...Also If the number stamped on that tag is a real ford number, Whoever stamped it just commited a felony....It is called tampering And it does come with jail time...I am not just talking out my ass here....Police Impound has my buddys car and he is serving the rest of his 2 year sentence as we speak....So for all you guys out there with that same little Vin tag you bought at a swapmeet and went home and stamped your vin on it, In the laws eyes you Are a criminal!!....I realize they do not give us many options, But I just want everyone to know that it is not just a little thing to restamp numbers...It can be serious given the right circumstances.... Also to the guy who said He does not have the original frame under his sedan but that does not mean it is not legal........Try and explain that to the officer when they are towing away your hot rod......Know this!!.....when you do away with the part of a auto that has the Vin number on it, You are doing away with that car....the rest of it is nothing more than parts....I know this for a fact!!....And anyone who thinks diffren't has a hard lesson coming from johnny law!!..Don't take my word for it call them up and ask them for yourself...they wil be happy to show you the way.....sure you might get away with it forever, But you might not..My budy was one of the unlucky ones who thought he knew it all..But when johnny law got done with him, He found out he did not know shit!!...And they are still not done with him, Not for another 9 months...
A little off subject, but a 40 ford deluxe floated around town because it didn't have a title. I bought it for parts and cheap, looked at the frame and there were the numbers. Took them to the dmv and had a title in about 3 weeks.
NO, stolen cars are in a national database otherwise states are on their own. It gets even dicier for older cars that WERE NEVER IN A SYSTEM as in 70s and later. I am 40, I remember a tour of the ND capitol when I was 7, they were using puch cards for this data. THEY DONT EVEN HAVE THE EQUIPTMENT TO READ A PUNCH CARD ANYMORE!!! Here in SD they told me they only have data from the last 20-30 years. I have to help the clerks many times with an old 3" thick reference book to figure out the curb weight for fees and such. I saved a ton when I titled the 33 PU, girl wanted to rate it as a 1 ton truck, it weighed stock 3400#
Maybe? I think this is voluntary by state, I just saw it today when I was on the MN site, it looks like MN participates. http://www.nmvtis.gov/ There is a relevant press release a the bottom of the page to the current topic. I guess I wouldn't waste my money on a car that has as its only form of ID a crappy tag pop riveted to the firewall. JMO though. http://www.justice.gov/usao/ins/press_releases/Pressrelease10/20100114.Wells.etal.pdf
It really is pretty simple in most states, sounds like NM is a little wierd but nothing you cant work around.
Tman, yes, I think we are agreeing. NM isn't wierd, just a little more picky. Use to be real easy till we started becoming the stolen car capitol of the world, the gov put some new rules on the books and overnight DMV started enforcing them. F&J, if you think it's BS show up a State Police office and ask them to inspect a car with missing vins and see what happens. Most the time they take late model stuff (stolen recoveries with the original vins removed) but I do know they impounded one guys 35 Ford. The only cars at risk are the ones with tampered original vins.
"When the DMV runs vin#'s are they run through a nation wide data base? Just curious." In California the DMV refers you to the Highway Patrol and CHP then checks your number(s) in their database of stolen cars/parts. I'm pretty sure they can check a national database of cooperating states. DMV is administration, CHP is law enforcement, get the difference? X2 for felonious re-installing/adding of a VIN plate. There's a lot of discussion of using "genuine" rivets from eBay to replace a VIN plate. I'd be wary.
When you buy this car from a guy and find out its either A hot or B unable to be titled, what are you going to do A go to the store and buy milk and cookies Or B go hunt this guy down and kick his ass. Its really a matter of whether or not you are guy A or B and whether or not you are a cookie eater or an ass kicker. Seems to me if I was selling these cars that sooner or later I might run across some big bad cookie hating MF, or some weak ass little cookie hater with an advantage, sooner or later that cookie hater is gonna come along, or you are gonna be choosing between Oreos or Nilla wafer or pulping ass yourself. Stone legal shit dont make us play this game.
I love all the self made authorities that come out on this topic. All you need to do is educate yourself to your states requirements. This omes up all the time, so every state has a procedure for settling questionable situations. I expect every one here is at least a little computer savy or you wouldn't be answering this thread. That means you are capable of searching your states motor vehicle code to get the answers. You might feel comfortable asking the girl behind the counter how to do something, but I work in an industry where there is no budet for training, no means of communicating change in regulations and most workers get their information in a verbal hand-me-down fashion, diluting the truth right out of existence. Do you really want to trust an underpaid government employee where advancement is on tenure rather than job performance? <TABLE><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD width=600 align=middle>Texas Administrative Code</TD><TD width="18%" align=right>Next Rule>></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE align=center CLEAR="cellpadding=0"><TBODY><TR vAlign=top align=left><TH>TITLE 43</TH><TD>TRANSPORTATION</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top align=left><TH>PART 10</TH><TD>TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF MOTOR VEHICLES</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top align=left><TH>CHAPTER 217</TH><TD>VEHICLE TITLES AND REGISTRATION</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top align=left><TH>SUBCHAPTER A</TH><TD>MOTOR VEHICLE CERTIFICATES OF TITLE</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top align=left><TH width=160>RULE §217.3</TH><TD>Motor Vehicle Certificates of Title</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <NO>(4) Serial number. If no serial number is die-stamped by the manufacturer on a motor vehicle, house trailer, trailer, semitrailer, or item of equipment required to be titled, or if the serial number assigned and die-stamped by the manufacturer has been lost, removed, or obliterated, the department will on proper application, presentation of evidence of ownership, and presentation of evidence of a law enforcement physical inspection, assign a serial number to the motor vehicle, trailer, or equipment. The manufacturer's serial number or the assigned serial number will be used by the department as the major identification of the motor vehicle or trailer in the issuance of a certificate of title. (5) Accompanying documentation. The certificate of title application must be supported by, at a minimum, the following documents: <SP> <NO>(A) evidence of vehicle ownership, as described in subsection (c) of this section; (c) Evidence of motor vehicle ownership. Evidence of motor vehicle ownership properly assigned to the applicant must accompany the certificate of title application. Evidence must include, but is not limited to, the following documents. <NO>(2) Used motor vehicles. A certificate of title issued by the department, a certificate of title issued by another state if the motor vehicle was last registered and titled in another state, or other evidence of ownership must be relinquished in support of the certificate of title application for any used motor vehicle. A letter of Title and Registration verification is required from a vehicle owner coming from a state that no longer titles vehicles after a certain period of time. Vernon's Civil Statutes Bonded Title- § 501.053. FILING OF BOND AS ALTERNATIVE TO HEARING. (a) As an alternative to the procedure provided by Section 501.052, the person may file a bond with the department. On the filing of the bond the department may issue the certificate of title. (b) The bond must be: (1) in the form prescribed by the department; (2) executed by the applicant; (3) issued by a person authorized to conduct a surety business in this state; (4) in an amount equal to one and one-half times the value of the vehicle as determined by the department; and (5) conditioned to indemnify all prior owners and lienholders and all subsequent purchasers of the vehicle or persons who acquire a security interest in the vehicle, and their successors in interest, against any expense, loss, or damage, including reasonable attorney's fees, occurring because of the issuance of the certificate of title for the vehicle or for a defect in or undisclosed security interest on the right, title, or interest of the applicant to the vehicle. (c) An interested person has a right of action to recover on the bond for a breach of the bond's condition. The aggregate liability of the surety to all persons may not exceed the amount of the bond. (d) A bond under this section expires on the third anniversary of the date the bond became effective. The department shall return an expired bond to the person who filed the bond unless the department has been notified of a pending action to recover on the bond. Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995. Section 501.151. Placement Of Serial Number With Intent To Change Identity § 501.151. PLACEMENT OF SERIAL NUMBER WITH INTENT TO CHANGE IDENTITY. (a) A person commits an offense if the person stamps or places a serial number on a vehicle or part of a vehicle with the intent of changing the identity of the vehicle. (b) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution of an offense under this section that the person acted with respect to a number assigned by: (1) a vehicle manufacturer and the person was an employee of the manufacturer acting within the course and scope of employment; or (2) the department, and the person was: (A) discharging official duties as an agent of the department; or (B) complying with department rule as an applicant for a serial number assigned by the department. (c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree. Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995. Section 501.158. Seizure Of Stolen Vehicle Or Vehicle With Altered Serial Number § 501.158. SEIZURE OF STOLEN VEHICLE OR VEHICLE WITH ALTERED SERIAL NUMBER. (a) A peace officer may seize a vehicle or part of a vehicle without a warrant if the officer has probable cause to believe that the vehicle or part: (1) is stolen; or (2) has had the serial number removed, altered, or obliterated. (b) A vehicle or part seized under this section may be treated as stolen property for purposes of custody and disposition of the vehicle or part. Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995. In a nutshell, there are two books of law in my state that you must comply with, The Texas Administrative Code and Vernon's Civil Statutes. I haven't come close to reading enough to be an authority, but I did find what you read here. I'll wager that 90% of you reading it were surprised by something. Do you really think the girl at the DMV knows these things? I can rivit my own tag on, so long as I do so faithfully and without intent to decieve. I can title a car with no number, altered number or mismatch number, so long as I provide adequate proof of ownership and no liens, theft reports, etc. come back to my parts. Do yourself a favor and do some research.
Yah but if any one read a thing they wouldnt even be posting about any of this so lets be as redundant as we can. Some folks would only have it sink in if it said " AND FREE BEER"
Let me ask that question again. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I ground the "HECHO EN MEXICO" off my SBC and stamped the original '30 serial numbers there and at present have no visible numbers stamped into the repro '32 frame, yet.........reason being that I could be considered felonious by stamping '30 serial numbers into a '32 frame when the original was a '30 and it's titled and registered as a '30. I do however have a body number tag riveted to the door jamb. If I get stopped by a "knowledgeable" (knows the difference between a '30 and a '32 frame) police officer I plan to say that it's a "numbers matching hot rod" with the serial numbers in the two original places, and an additional one for him to see easily without removing the body. What say you?
What about a 1931 Chevy pick up, that never had a number stamped on the frame, and now has a Small Block Chevrolet, and no wood left in the floor, meaning the serial# tag is missing, but I do have an ownership paper for it with a 1931 serial#. You would think that a person could simply buy the correct aftermarket tag from Chevs of the Forties, stamp the serial# to it, and nail it into the new floor wood, right?
I didn't read all of the posts here but I hope the majority of them are telling you what a dufus you are. Cars from the 30's for the most part are not going to have their own special easily seen VIN tags. Most of the ones I've seen are improvised like the one in your photo to stop some DMV MORON that has no clue what he is talking about from asking stupid questions. I sold a nice 1928 Model A roadster that had a 1928 Roadster title that matched the block number with the exception of one digit that was missing and probably a DMV error sometime in the car's long past. The buyer came with a old car expert but it was the buyer himself who started with the whiney bullshit about the title not being for that car and it was illegal and I had to get it corrected, blah blah blah. I asked both of them to please follow me out of the garage and I slammed the door behind them as soon as they stepped out, said "have a nice day" and went back to the house leaving them standing there with their cash in hand and mouths wide open. About 10 minutes later the "expert" knocked on the door and apologized for his friend the buyer telling me that he doesn't know old cars very well and would I please sell him the car. LOL The "expert" understood that having a title in hand that said "1928 Model A Roadster" on it was the most important thing. Being able to tie that title to the car, even if one number was absent was also very good. And third, having the DMV correct an obvious typo is not that hard and there is even a standard form for it. The buyer almost lost himself a great car by being a nerdy geek that was causing trouble where their didn't need to be any. You lost out on what looks like a cool car because of a nerdy geek friend.
The Jalopy Journal
