Yes, then there is tech. This year they enforced the no shorts rule for drivers and the local Wal Mart had a run on long pants. Bob Kehoe told me that last year he was on the line and an official came out and informed him that he could not drive without a long sleeve shirt so he sat there while a buddy went back to their pit and borrowed one for him. This year I saw a lot of short sleeved shirts. They do seem to waive some of the rules as a good part of the cars are not high tech. The tech guy told us our helmet was out of date but no one said anything on the line. I once had a discussion with the head of security at the 66 Rendezvous and he said his biggest headache was over zealous individuals that let their one day of authority go to their heads. The flier sent out by the sponsoring club makes no reference to any of these regulations so there is some confusion but every lived through it.
I got called out on the "too much rubber fuel line" thing last year. I was told that they don't want to see more then 12" total. That is why I changed mine before the event this year. I also noticed that the tech guy didn't check my seat belt to make sure they were actually bolted down. Maybe he didn't find my banger threatening enough to hurt anyone. .
I don't find tech stuff interesting anymore, probably because I do it for a living. It's just another tool in my tool chest to me It doesn't matter to me if I use a traditional centrifugal setup, or a fancy digital thing like I pictured. Digital is just quicky to manipulate and has more flexibility. Thats why I think we should talk about advance curves, not hardware Thats interesting. I already suspected that a Banger needs lots of advance at low revs, and probably a steep curve in the 1500 to 2000 area. 20 degrees at 1100 is more than I expected, but is exactly the kind of info I am after. It would be interesting to know how much advance you are getting at higher revs......but no point in messing with something that works. Any more experiences on advance numbers .....particularly in the 1500 to 2500 range which is (I think) the critical area of the curve
Halfdone... I think your best bet is going to be playing on the dyno. If you are going to find someone with real advance numbers it will be here. But in the end you will still have to play on a dyno to see what each engine likes best. High tech is very cool but must of us are shade tree. If you jump on a plane with your toys I will let you come to the dyno with me the next time I go. I would love to have one if you can give a working out of the box tone that only needs a little playing with.
Tech Inspection: I carefully swung the floor jack as I am jacking the car for them into the tire to take up all the suspension slop I once safety wired a beer can opener to the firewall with a 12pt bolt.... They were so busy looking at and discussing my 'On board opening system' that I breezed thru. There is always a way!
Dyno time is on the agenda, but it helps to have a ball park idea when setting up the initial curve. If I can work out a deal on the innards, a full configurable one in a original housing or magneto case looks pretty easy to do. When I have one working, I'll post here
Some more numbers for you. The Wico X magnetos have a 9 to 12 degree advance and it is all in when the impulse reaches around 250 to 500 RPM"s. depending on wear and other factors. This is called the Lag Angle. So I don't think you could call it a curve. We used to time them by advancing until the engine started to kick back. Usually at 5 to 8 degrees BTDC.
I have a good Model T Racing Thread established over on the new Ford Barn site that Ryan has redone. Coverage of overhead valve heads and other speed equipment along with old photos and modern ones. You will learn that there was an incredible amount of racing equiptment made for them that most people are unaware of. All the way from four valve heads to DOHC 16-valve heads and the established an amazing racing record. So check it out (link below) and if you have anything to add please do. Thanks, T-Head. http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3723
Was at a cruse tonight and saw a Model A Coupe with a two carb EQUALIZER manifold. Have never seen that brand before.
Thanks for the info on advance Bill, I have a WICO X and a WICO JEM1509 so that is usefull ....... pity they have no centrifugal advance ..... Any more info on advance specs would be good everyone Now for a new tech subject ...... Intake ports in B blocks. Does anyone know if there is a water passage below the intake ports ? In other words ...... is it just solid metal between the port floor and the roof of the valve gear chamber? Specifically in the area between the guide and the outside of the block? Or will I find a "void" between the port floor and the valve gear chamber? I know I have seen some disected block photos somewhere, but I can't find them But post 19 of this thread has photos of a block with the deck opened up ..... A or B ??? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=320453&highlight=porting+banger
I got this advance info from George at Clay Smith cams: Advance starts at 800 RPM and is all in by 1800 RPM. Set initial advance so that you have 36 deg total advance @ 1800 rpm. Distributor has @ 25 degs of mechanical advance. He has no vacum advance info. With out major modification, your not going to get 4000 rpm from a flat head A or B. Mine stops developing power @ 3200 rpm. with minor modification. Here is the port cut a way pictures. This is A.
George Riley recommended using a 1.625 (15/8") with a 70 degree angle cutter to open the exhaust valve pocket and port. It would seem if there were any difference it would be more water around the exhaust port/seat I think he was referring to "B" blocks I don't see why it wouldn't work on the intakes. I have my intakes opened to 1.625 at the ports on an "A" block. I also remember Joe Mac blowing the bottom out of an intake port because he or someone had removed too much material. I'm not sure but I don't think there were any casting changes around the port. The main difference is the deck is thinner on the "B" block There was a drawing of the casting changes dated late in 31 prior to production of the "B" showing the dimension changes. Wayne Actkinson also opened up ports in some of his block flow tests. All this is from articles in S O S S. The Riley info is from his recommendations on setting up a block for his 4 port head.
not to intervien , but the stock dist on an "A" has 40* avaliable . 5* retard & 35* advance at your control . the tech is over my head . just a thought ! ............. steve
Here are some numbers for you, theses are from the instructions that came from my 1 st FS distributor Start 0 500 3 1000 17 1250 28 1500 29 I'm not going to post the rest as it remains at 29, They recommended, somewhere , to start at 5 degrees BTDC . If you really want to hear some high numbers find someone with, I think, Volume 5 #1 of the S O S S magazine. I think some of his early Dyno test's are in the issue. Although they sound hard to believe Jim Brierley once told me he had seen the degrees of advance that Ron Kelly's used during his OVH dyno tests Google RK designs. I had Jere Jobe recurve a dual p[oint mallory for me and, if I remember correctly, it had 23 degrees of advance all in by 2100 or 2200 RPM's CDO, were those advance figures for a flathead or an over head?
WOW Great info coming in guys The ignition numbers confirm what I suspected, being low reving torquey engines they require lots of advance, way earlier in rev range than I am use to. If I decide to do a digital conversion it will need to be a fully mapable one, as most controllers with user selectable off the shelf advance curves don't have any curves this fat this early .....ie most have under 20 degrees out to 3000+ So it would need to be fully mappable to be worth bothering with. Something like this sucker ....... http://123ignition.nl/id/50.html I am also finding a distinct lack of info on vacume advance on bangers, probably because it is not something that was available in traditional gear. My gut feel tells me that dynamically adjusting advance in the 1000 to 1500 rpm range based on manifold pressure readings would be a good thing in engines that have a reputation of blowing out centre bearings - especially since we traditionally link bearing failure to detonation or "lugging" the engine at low revs. A system including a detonation sensor would be even better, but that take you into external box and big dollar teritory. My aim here is to concentrate on getting the best low end and midrange torque, since big revs and HP are the sworn enemies of a 3 bearing crank. The HP figures of bangers are unimpressive for a 200in motor ..... but the torque figures are cool .....again a reflection of the basic limitations of a 3 bearing crank
Just plain Bill is getting around 80Hp. (72 at the wheels) Nice work. So is the 'A' powered midget in my avatar. To be more impressive, HP wise...Just need to make one rev to 5500 or so.
Yep, 80HP is a solid number alright, given the start point and basic limitations, or should I say challenges. The stuff I am contemplating mostly seems to be bottom end work, at least to get started "right" That is of course what makes it a fun challenge....... if it was easy everyone would be doing it. I'm enjoying playing with the two bangers I have here, and doing the planning and collecting bits for the "big" build. It's a new world, compared to the SBC and BBC stuff I have played with for 20+ years. My natural tendency is to concentrate on the head, cam, intake etc as thats were I am use to power coming from ...... since a robust bottom end and insert bearings, is a "given" and doesn't need much to get into 400hp territory. When my Thomas head srrived the other day the penny kind of dropped ........ I took it out of the box and thought "well thats the head work finished" I need to make a bunch of decisions on bearings, main caps, rods, pistons and then decide if I am having the block and crank machined in the US before I ship it, or find a banger literate machinist here
Timing. Some more numbers. This is from a correction in the S O S S volume 6 #4 page 40 by Ron Kelly about the ignition timing on a comparative dyno test of an original Cragar and a Denver Miller. He states in his correction that his timing was from 20 degrees at 700 RPM's to 60 degrees at 2200 or 2300 RPM's. I believe he was using reworked a dual point Mallory. If you doubt this find and read the magazine or call him.
When I read the article with those numbers in it back then, it made everything else that he wrote suspect. Herb Kephart
I can believe 60 degrees for something like my M&B OHV head. Big, dumb chamber with the spark plug way down a tube and off to one side. On a good flathead with plenty of swirl caused by the large squish area over the piston dome I find around 32 total as the max on gas.
If Bill said it is so, I will accept it! I run an original Miller-Schofield at 45*. As Rich says- big DUMB chamber-but I did make spark plug adaptors to put 14mm long reach plugs closer to the chamber wall. Herb
I was just passing on information that is available to all that take the time to research it. Shortly after Ron Kelly's article came out I had a conversation with Jim Brierley about it. There is a lot of misinformation and generalization out there. I personally wouldn't use 35 degrees advance as a starting point on an engine with a flat head. I did have that much on the engine that broke a crank and felt that it had something to do with the problem. I was told by an old lakes racer that the faster the engine turned the more advance you could have or use. Notice that Ron Kelly was testing Miller type overheads and he had found that the normal advance used for flathead engines caused the OHV engines to run hot. The NuRex auto timing device advanced the "Stock" A ignition 10 degrees for each 1000 RPM's and if you could turn your stock engine to 3000 you would have 30 degrees. I have one of those early ones still in the box and had thought to use it with a stock "B" distributor. You could get a lot of advance, 59 degrees at 3 grand. I'm thinking of a B distributor reworked by FS with the Pertronix conversion. They rebuild and recurve the stock B distributor to give you 29 degrees and the electronic trigger solves one of the major B distributor problems, point gap varying due to wear on the upper shaft. Riley recommended 30 degrees for his 4 port actually he stated 30 degrees or set with the piston 3/8" from TDC. Hows this for a bunch of trivia for Fathers day!
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