Hot Rods Illinois Title Issues

If the body hasn't been licensed in 30 or 40 years, have a friend or relative from Georgia make out a bill of sale. Or make a bogus one of your own. I've done this and got a title with no problem. GA doesn't issue titles on older cars.
I know it's not legal, but Illinois gets plenty of my money. Fuckem!

 

Welcome to the new California DMV and CARB. They are out to eliminate our cars in the USA. Read HOP UP this month.

 

This 48 is still together. There is a body number on the firewall. There is still a locked up flathead 6 in the engine compartment, who knows if its original (there are probably numbers on it as well, if I knew where to find them under all that accumulated gunk). The body (what is not rusted away like the floorboards are) is still bolted to frame, and there is still a trans and a rear axle bolted in place, rear drums are locked up. There is no interior, and the speedo is gone. There were no tires or wheels. The entire front suspension is still there but the brake drums are locked up.

I was told the car was originally a western suburbs police car that was retired, then moved to a pasture, then to the woods, then to the location along the fence line where it sat for at least 10 years before I bought it. The guy I bought it from has had it in his possession the past 10 years. The story of its origin may or may not be true.

I know several years ago, IL did not keep title info on any cars that had not been registered in a ten year period of time, so the state shouldn't have any record of this body remaining in their records, as I understand what I was told many years ago.

The flathead 6 is locked up, and the 3 speed behind it is wimpy, I won't reuse either of those. All the existing brakes are stuck, I won't be using them either. The front frame cross member has rust holes in it, though I can patch it, I'm not planning on using the original frame. The floorboards are pretty much nonexistent, so I will be rebuilding them to match up with the new frame. This body was bought (for scrap price) specifically to mount on this Dakota chassis. With all this in mind, an original 48 title would not be very accurate anyway. The problem is, there is no place where a guy can get a straight answer. All I want to do is put a 48 car body on my 90 Dakota frame, and make it legal to drive, and if I choose to at some point in the future, sell.

I will building a safe car. I will have no issues with getting it inspected. Emissions around here are not checked, but I intend on keeping the drive train stock, so that shouldn't be an issue either. I'd have to get it appraised to get insurance on it anyway, so I have no problem with getting it appraised. I'll pay the tax I owe, but I don't want to get robbed either. Fortunately, this is a lowly Plymouth, they aren't worth as much as Fords are. There is no reason this should be hard. Guess I'm going to find out. Gene

 

That would make life much easier for me, how do I go about that these days? Back a couple years ago, you build the ride, called the police and a nice officer came out, did the paper work, and you took it in to the local DVM and paid your money and they gave you plates. Probably not that easy anymore. Gene

 

Please don't get this tread locked with the political BS statements like this start. We have already established what the state sees with these old car titles and the new procedures mean to the state, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Gene

 

Gene,
If she is all together I would have said to try to title her and then do your thing. Your local DMV may have wanted an officer to look at it, you would have to either trailer it to or have them come to you. However, you scared me with the bought it for scrap part, if it has a salvage title on it its a rough thing to title. Got any police friends or a dealer buddy who could search the numbers on the car or title?
Sometimes its worse to have any numbers than none. With no numbers and no title you would bond it. The real kick in the goolies is this tax, if you finish it they use your appraisal to shanghai you, I got myself poked this way, If you bought a running beater out of Georgia that could roll down the road with no title or nothing and just a bill of sale for 2 grand, they would try to get you for this big tax later, The only way to avoid that tax would be to document the beater with pictures and an appraisal to verify it being a 2 grand beater. Otherwise without the 2 grand appraisal they say oops its worth 35 grand and wack you with max transfer tax. The real thing I' m trying to figure is how to get you out of the transfer tax which I think is 1800 dollars.
This one really is complex,
Having gone through the no numbers no nothing route and knowing I gave them an appraisal for big money and paid 25 bucks in fees, I know Im gonna get an arse kicking. So if I had a car with a real title and a bill of sale and a vin that matched my title I would, only if all this previous is the case, go to the DMV try to get a title, use a photo copy of the bill of sale so you dont lose the original. One of two things will happen, you get a title, in which case I would immediately have the wreck appraised to fend off the high tax, or get shut down right away because of a salvage title or other problems. It would then become a lot more complex but most likely still not impossible, the only problem is that it may become more expensive than the body is worth. They may pull your title in a couple of years and search the car, never pull that tag off or..., I think they use special rivets, if they come after it just have a good paper trail and the appraisal to fend them off it, The worst that could happen then might be a bond.
It sux to have to play this game, this is what I meant by going at it from a few different angles, you want to succeed as cheaply as possible at this, so you cant just walk in and tell the whole tale about the dakota and all. Id start with cheap and easy and play dumb.

 

See, my problem is, I have no title for the 48, only a bill of sale, and it states the car was bought without a title. I have to presume that at some point, this car likely came out of a scrap yard, esspecially if it really was at one time an ex police car.

So, lets just say, for fun... This car was a police car, bought new by a police department. After years of service, it was retired at a local junk yard, say in the mid 50s. Then in say, the mid 70s someone bought the car to build a hot rod, but never got the job done, so it ended up in his pasture. Then, say mid 80s, someone drags it out of the field to build it, but he doesn't get it done either, so it gets pushed into his back woods. Then, say mid 90s someone drags it out of the woods and starts doing something with it, but things happen and it never gets finished. Then it gets stuck along the fence line. Then in 2010 someone buys the car for about what the going rate for scrap is, and drag it to his house. He's intending on getting it built. He has a good frame and drive train from an old truck he owns. He gets a receipt that says he bought this car for $$$ and it has no title.

Now, back in the 90s, I bought an old truck that hadn't been licensed in over 20 years. I had paperwork, but numbers were unclear. I was informed at that time that the state of IL does not keep records of any motor vehicle that has not been licensed in 7 years, they presume them to have been scrapped. That leads me to believe that the state did not keep records of anything that has been scrapped until recently either. So the question is, does the state actually have a record of this car that may or may not have been scrapped back in the 50s? Its certainly not been licensed in the past 10 or more years.

By the way, the body number is held onto the body with 2 philips head screws. There is also a Plymouth devision plate without any numbers that is held onto the body by 2 philips head screws. Don't forget, this car was build after WWII and all they were concerned about was getting them out the door and into the publics' hands.

Its never easy, or clear cut. Gene

 

If it was police and it was modern it gets some sort of weird non public use title, They still end up on the street in joe publics hands but not supposed to. The only way the bill of sale works is if the DMV can call the state of reference and get a history on the registration, other wise you end up back at square one, bonding. The bonding aint that awful, if its just the bond. Even in the bonding process I think I really F'd up because I tore the old girl apart too fast and if I did it again I would have gotten an appraisal on that old wreck rather than just having an appraisal on the riches. I already paid my high tax in sales tax to get it to the riches and now Ive got no slap back to the transfer tax amount, no valid argument that says rags was a 3 grand junk.
If the dakota frame has no numbers on it who the heck would know where it came from, you just need a receipt saying you bought it ,that would be your clear title, You may not want to have the numbers on that body, it might be best if a big wind blew them off, If you protect them from the winds they may get run later and a problem could pop up on your finished ride. You can bond her, get the kit and go through it the gal will answer your questions, you know you havent done anything yet and it dont sound like you have that much cash in it, if I had that little cash in the equation I would have asked a lot more questions. Ask her, what can happen?

 

Gene,
theres another thread on here search illinois titles, those guys are posting a lot about the transfer tax.

 

Bla Bla Bla.... Use the body # as the VIN, have your bill of sale notorized showing the body #. Title if before you build it and pay the applicable fee. That's all they want.

 

Bla Bla, come to Illinois and try it, its not as easy as you think. They want $1800.00.

 

I always Staple a copy of my bill of sale to the RUT 50 form and have never gotten the "letter for more tax owed" if you dont supply proof of purchase price then it goes to "fair market value" Also the SOS really doesnt have anything to do with the tax or how much tax you pay other than they are the collecting agent for the IL Dept of revenue at time of transfer.
However the VIN number deal they are and are cracking down on My question is: Say you have a model A body and you build the chassis ,so with no Vin number they will make you do a Bonded title (so later on if somebody else tries to claim the car is stolen and they are the owner they have a bond on it) but with no Vin number on the body how can anybody prove it is or isnt any particular car ? they cant so whats the purpose of the bond?

 

The purpose of the bond is to certify that the funds are readily available in the event of a controversy, the state removes themselves from the equation, it is between you and the bond company, a bond is not an insurance policy, if you default a bond they will come after you to collect their money, you sign this form that gives them power of collection.

 

I understand the pupose of a bond, my point is why should you have to put a bond on something that cannot be proven either way? If I purchase a bond on an old car with a known VIN but I bought without a title ( which is they way they used to do it before all this crap started)then someone could try to claim ownership of that car if they could prove some type of ownership to that specific VIN but how would you be able to prove anything without any numbers? you cant so the bond is moot and should not be needed IMO

 

Key word, known Vin, that would come back from the dmv as a clean registration, thats how you buy them from non holding states, they call that state and do a registration history check, if it all jives you should be good to go. But if it sat for twenty years on the farm you may not get that history of registration back. Then you may be bonding.

The main purpose of the bond is to clean the poop off the states boot on the process, if it stinks or lets off any kind of stink they want a bond, they want a bond on anything that has a wrong number, a number out of place, looks retagged, has a different engine, they use it like raid.

 

I think I know what Russco is asking. If you buy just a Model A body. How do you come up with any numbers when they were on the engine and/or frame?
THere may not be any #s on that body. So a bonded title would not work.

 

I AM from Illanoy, and I have licensed and titled antiques (hot hods) without a title. If you have a car that has a great value, fair market, pay the tax! All of these problems only seam to exist when someone trys to circumvent the system. Yeah it sucks to pay tax, the only people who don't have to pay tax....don't have anything of value to tax. Peace

 

So, after you jump through all the hoops and get the bonded title from this fine state, do they come along and slap their own set of numbers on the thing?

Several years ago, I knew a guy that assembled a car body on a 4x4 truck frame. When he got all done, the car had 3 vins on it, the original car, the original truck vin the frame came from, and the state issued (and applied to the door post) vin saying that whole mess was a legit car.

I'm hoping when I get all done with it, drop a pile of cash, and jumped through the hoops, I'll at least have a tag from the state showing a number that matches my new bonded title. Am I dreaming? Gene

 

Marty B33 it used to be alot different here this new crack down just started in the last 8 months or so. However the tax law did not change if its under 15K its a flat rate but you HAVE to submit a bill of sale with the RUT50 form and in the instance of a real basket case submitting a picture of the junker wouldnt hurt either but if you just say you bought a 40 coupe for $1200 bucks why would they believe that without a bill of sale to prove it so then they go to a classic car value book like a kelly blue book or similar and calculate your tax off that figure and send you a letter demanding the difference. As for the Vin issues as far as Ive heard now the policy is any pre 49 title submitted for transfer now must have the Vin verified by the SOS meaning they want you to bring the car to their inspection station and match the vin on the title to the vin on the car if it doesnt match the whole new process of getting bonded and new vin issued begins I guy in my club just went thru this it took well over a year to finally get his title/plates and this was a nice street rod that had been previously built tiltled and driven for years from another state they even made him repay all the fees he had already paid once and also repay for his plates which he also purchased and then were confiscated by the SOS

 

Yes they will issue you a new Vin more than likely if your are not allowed to use the chassis vin from your donor

 

I know exactly how much it cost...I got a bill for the max. I'm not saying it's cheap, but it's not that difficult. I did this last year. Lots of conversation about this, it's the state of Illinois, all they want is to collect the tax.

 

Gene:
After the state inspects the car, they may use state trooper you get an aluminum tag, its 2 inches long and a qtr inch thick the trooper comes out checks your car, hands you the tag, points to where he wants you to rivet it to your car and you have a new vin and a new title that matches that aluminum strip, if you look at the shows you will see the pro builts all have these tags.
Im sure anyone can appreciate that 1800 bucks is a fair amount of cash, got to spend a bit of time in the mines for it, If a few of you guys can save 1800 bucks over a bit of conversation about this Im sure you agree its worth it.
You can bond almost anything, 20 bucks a thousand.

 

I must have been lucky. I got my 56 from Alabama, of which any car over 20 years old no longer holds a title. I received a signed bill of sale. Short story shorter, other then the DMV looking it up about the BOS, I had no problems getting a title. This was in 2002, before Blago screwed the up the whole state.

 

I bought a 46 ford truck cab last year, no title or any vin tags. should i have the cab appraised before i start doing anymore body work to it? i built my frame and bought suspension kits from speedway. motor is out of a 79 bronco that i bought with no title. i know it will need to be bonded but i dont want to pay a crap load on the tax of its value.

 

That might be a good idea for two reasons, you would establish the value for taxes and you would establish the value in case a person made a claim on your bond, if you lost to them you may only have to reimburse the value of the item before it was reworked.

 

This is great information. Thanks to all who have contributed. I've been collecting parts for a '29 A closed cab project. This will be my first project where I'm not starting with a titled car. It sounds like the paperwork will take longer than the build. I guess I better get started.

 

The info has really been coming around in the last couple of months, thanks guys.

 

This info is great. We need to keep it coming. PLEASE, all this stuff has changed since about Oct 2009 in the state of IL. What worked before then, likely won't work now. Also, it seems as though the state is primarily concerned with cars 1948 or earlier, for now at least. We welcome anything someone has actually gone through since the "new" era has begun, good or bad. Keep us informed.

I'm going to progress with my build. I will be going the bonded title route, but its likely to be at least a year before I'm at the point of title and license. When I get close to the safety check and appraisal, I'll call the nice lady down in Springfield and be sure I have whatever they need ready to go. Hopefully, by then, they will have a procedure hammered out that works for everyone.

Much as it sucks, welcome to the new Illinois. Gene

 

Who the hell do I get a bonded title from? Anybody with suggestions of a good place in Illinois to get one.

Wish I would have really read this thread a couple days sooner.

Thanks.

 

hmmm...i'm guessing the stack of pre-48 IL. titles i just got are useless!