Front axle-suicide or not????

I have been throwing this around in my head for a while, and I'm at the point in the build now that I have to get the front end on. I know how people feel about suicide front ends, but this would be done right, not rat rod (god I hate that term). I was going to go suicide because I have 2x4 box tubing for main frame rails, and built the car with a bullet type stance, straight arrow like, going for that simple, clean, mean fast look. a suicide axle would keep everything straight and consistant, but I also like the way a typical frame looks, and I would have to sweep the front rails-no big deal, don't mind doing that, just not sure if I would be happy with swoopy rails. I don't want to Z the front of the car, I really don't like the way that looks. its a 1930 Model A coupe, I'l try and get some pictures up, but I'd appreciate any opinions. I'm really just stuck at this point, I like them both, and really don't know which way to go. Just looking for some input.

 

Here are some old pics when I first started. Not the greatest in the world, and pretty far from where I am with the car now, but you still get the idea.

 

I prefer a traditional cross member.

 

anybody can build a rat rod all you need is rust and flat black its a terrible way to see a hot rod being used

 

So you want a "spring-behind" front end?

 

Not! if you do the suicide, put the axle right in front of your radiator with minimal clearance, like 1/2" or less. They look better that way!

 

since nobody will answer your question, i have a spring over suicide axle on my 31A pickup, its there because of the same reason 2x4 frame not really set up for a crossmember, i tend to like it better for my truck, thats not to say other cars dont look stupid with a suicide axle it just worked on mine, so i say go for it just dont stick it out to far thats when it starts lookin goofy

 

Not sure what to advise you. You could do something like my avatar then again I remember a 34 coupe as a teen in the '50s with the frame Zd in the front and back. It sat real level and low and looked pretty racy. Whatever you do from the way it looks now I'm sure you will have a kool ride.

 

It sounds to me like what you want is what was once known as a "bulldog" frontend. It becomes "suicide" when the spring is placed behind the axle and in the case of anything breaking there is "essentially" nothing going to stop you from going end over end...thus resulting in death or at least injury at your own hands.

"Bulldog" frontends have been around almost forever. Somewhere, sometime, to get it even lower someone placed the spring behind the axle. There are people who have had no technical problems with either setup. Nothing will be as safe as stock.

Here is an example of a "bulldog" frontend.

 

I like the Rolling Bones approach. Spring just behind the front axle.

Mounting an original or after market Model A front cross member is very doable and gives support to the radiator.

One of the problems in designing a front end set up is that everything wants to be in the same place.

One solution is to turn the spindles around so the arms point forward. This violates the Ackerman principle and, despite what some people say, is just bad engineering.

Another solution is to stretch the wheel base. Frankly, a Model A needs some more wheelbase to ride smoothly and provide room for the motor. 106"/107" is about right to my eye. Around 115" they can start to look like a cartoon (other opinions may vary).

Good luck on your build!!

 

I should have provided more info, I'm doing a torsion bar setup. If I went suicide, the frame would extend JUST in front of the grill shell and have the spreader bar 1" off the grill shell, or not at all, have the grill shell at the front most part of the frame. The axle would be only about an inch in front of that to prevent it from having the waaayyyyy toooo long look you see on rat rods. Torsion bar longitudinaly oriented, aluminum arms picking the axle up on a link off the batwing, much like some of the east coast 50s-60s era sprint cars. Using schroeder gundrilled bars, and using bilstein's new hot rod shocks. Thanks for the input so far guys. I knew this thread would get some of the rat rod hate, but this car is not a rat rod, all hot rod, all done right, all clean (Its even going to have Shiny Paint!!!! AND chrome wheels!!!)

 

Thanks bib overalls, thats where I got the inspiration from, rolling bones that is. I like the way their cars look. And you are right, the reason its not already done (and the reason I've been thinking way too much about this) is getting everything in the right spot. I've had to make everything from scratch to keep the geometry right. I'm big on having a car handle the best as possible, so there have been countless hours spent figuring geometry, formulas, instant centers, etc.. the way I have it laid out now the wheel base is 108", and its just a little longer than I want, looks a little too long for my tastes. Thats why I was thinking about pulling the spreader bar off the front of the grill and building that structure all in behind the grill shell, pulling 2" off the wheelbase. I tend to overengineer and over think things sometimes, so some opinions from fellow rodders helps ground the situation. Thanks guys!

 

Give me a second...I'm scanning some pictures to see if I have this pinned down.

 

Thanks white brothers. Learned something new today! bulldog front ends. Very cool, and very cool pic.

 

What is basically VW? Though, I'm sure yours will be different...or maybe not, who knows.

 

Haha, a lot different actually. I'll sketch it real quick to show you, My scanner is busted so I'll just have to take a picture and post it, but I'll get the point across, lol. Sorry for the confusion.

 

I kind of agree with with sticky on the whole "wheels belong in wheel wells" but I also like the look and stance of jimmy shines 34. I haven't really made up my mind on my 32 truck yet either. I am going to mock it up this week end and i will start a post and let the hambers help me decide!!!

 

Okay, these are some HORRIBLE drawings, I did them quick to try and get the idea across. Hopefully you guys can make it out from these horrible non-artistic renderings, if not let me know and I'll take some time and draw it out better. Front and side view. The torsion arm-to-batwing attachment is stolen right from 50s-60s era sprint cars from the east coast (I don't know if the west coast guys used the same method) and allows for weight jacking/ throwing wedge into the car if necessary. Probably won't go that in depth in tuning the chassis, although I do like having the ability should the situation present itself.

 

Those drawing are for the suicide idea I was thinking about, which also dictates the axle being very close to the frame, not a quarter mile in front of it

 

I see it...and I think I may have another picture. Give me another minute to scan it.

 

Maybe its just me, but I've always felt strongly that suicide front ends are cool on pre 27 stuff, but an A just needs a traditional spring over axle setup.

Are you running fenders? Your losin me on the torsion bar set up. I have this thought of a Volare welded to the front of your frame. Tryin to be open minded, but Im not feelin it. Prove me wrong here!

 

Here is the pic that came to mind when I saw your drawing.

 

I was apparently writing as you were posting the pics BTW. Like the thought.

 

Nobody lives forever. Go with the suicide ft end.

 

Haha, its cool Crease, I have the uncanny ability to think something up thats pretty different, and present it in the most unrelatable way possible. I usually have to actually make it before I can get the point across, lol. The guys at work have learned how to understand the way I put things, but they still have difficulty.

The car is open wheel, no fenders. The whole idea is to keep this clean straight arrow look I'm after. The frame rails are straight, and I'm running a 4 bar (I know, I know, I'm a traditional guy, I just think the 4 bar looks better with what I'm after). The torsion bar would be mounted inside the frame rail, in the tubing. A notch in the rail would allow the torsion arm to come out, and attach to a double heim link (thats the vintage sprint part), which in turn is attached to the batwing, which would be modified to accept the increased forces. Everything would be in double shear, because I'm big on safety and sound engineering, and I have a background in race cars (to me thats just how you do things, don't like single shear) As far as shocks they would be mounted like traditionally mounted/style shocks, but I plan on using bilsteins new offering-a little more advanced as far as controlling the spring, and the ride is pretty good from what I'm told. The torsion bar would be a shroeder gundrilled bar, made for modern sprints, but plenty durable enough for a street car.

 

Thats pretty much the same idea white brothers! Different execution, but the idea is the same.

 

Well then I say all lights are green!! That should really be turning some heads!

 

Alright, suicide it is then!!! Thankss tons guys for the assistance, just needed a kick in the pants to pursue the path less traveled I guess. Once I get some time I'll start a build thread and get pics up. Thanks again guys!

 

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That's a pretty cool idea. So a 180 degree slot in the frame rail to clearance the arm, right? Lookin forward to seein it....hate it when Im wrong!

 

Well I have a pretty good idea in my head what you're wanting,and I think It'll look pretty good.Less cluttered.Plus I'm a mopar guy so I'm all about a torsion bar setup. I'll be waiting for those build pics.