I am new to HAMB, so, set me straight if I am off the mark. I want a good daily driver from my 1966 Checker Marathon Wagon, but, being a Family Doc who sees 2-3 whiplash cases and a couple concussions per week, I am keen to have excellent brakes, headrests, three point harnesses, a third brake light as well as a throaty roar and some torque for towing other Checkers around (3700-4200lbs, plus trailer). Checkers came from the factory with Chevy engines after 1965, and had various leftovers from Studebaker (column, drums), Borg Warner manual transmission with overdrive, 57 Ford A-frames, IH tailgate window cranks, Dana 44 rear end, etc - almost everything on permanent backorder. The decisions I need to make are: 1. do I use the existing 283 2-bolt main, casting 3849852, or switch in my 327 2 bolt main, casting 3970010, both with pyramid heads? (I read people love the 283 for longevity) 2. do I call Master Power Brakes for a power front disk conversion kit, or cut out coffee from my diet and count on waking up really fast the first time I go to stop each morning? 3. do I pull entire seats from newer cars in the local Pick Your Part and install them or fiddle with adding height and headrests to my factory front bucket seat backs? 4. do I switch out the existing 2.73 rear end for a 3.73? I think I need to remove, rebuild and reuse the 283. I think the expense of new brakes, installed by a pro, is wise. I think I need to scrounge some Volvo seats for the front, some extra headrests to play with for the back seat (long term project). I can likely find a Volvo wagon to scavenge some rear seat shoulder harness anchors from. Or, do I ship the cars to my buddy in the Mojave Desert and go buy one of those pretty, new Buick Lacrosse's? -Chris
Hey Chris ...You have a plan. Get started....Keep the 283, add good disc brakes and drive it. Change the rear end later after some miles....
IMO, that 283 is small enough for the heft of the stock Marathon, much less trying to tow a trailer with another Checker on board. Somewhat depends on how often, and how far, you intend to tow. If you do keep the 283, or install the 327 for that matter, it seem desirable to have the 3.73's and swap in a good automatic w/overdrive (700R4 perhaps) with a good tranny cooler. Likewise with the brakes....if daily driving causes mild panic when stopping, even a trailer w/brakes is really pushing the limits on the Checker. Your thoughts on seats, belts and headrests sound reasonable. What sounds even more reasonable is your last sentence Ray
Actually I have a Studebaker Lark but I had some of the same concerns as you. I love my dics brakes. It makes driving the car so much more fun. I just feel better every time I need to stop. As long as I needed to do something with the engine a 383 fit in just as well as a 327 or 283. So I git a 383. The 3.70 gear seems to work well for me.
1- I'd toss the 283 and get a 350, unless you are really VERY patient. 283s run great, very smooth and reliable, but too slow. 2- What spindles have you got ? Might be a good time for a front clip. And not an Mustang II streetrod piece either. 3- Find some late model seats, power would be nice. Some have the switches on the side of the seat. 4- Depend on the engine and trans combo.
If I were going to tow that much with it, I would go to a 400 small block, overdrive automatic, and 3.70-3.90 gears in the rear end, coupled with the burliest (disk) brakes I could find for reasonable money. On the other hand, it seems you already have a plan figured out; go for it.
I am not sure what the spindles are from - I understand the front suspension in 60s Checkers is 57 Ford. Checker built 5000 cars per year, so when the Edsel doesn't sell well in the recession of '58, Checker buys the spares from Ford and uses them up. Thanks for the advice. I will explore a supercharger too. I understand this would require a new cam with tall exhaust lobe, modest intake lobes and nearly no overlap. It would use some of my height reserves (tall hood) and would not impede the space I need for a big diaphragm for power brakes. It would mean a bottom end rebuild to ensure low compression, no piston slap and to assess whether blow by will spray oil everywhere. I'll certainly take any advice you have about SJ on 283s. I will visit Pick Your Part to look for seats....
I visited a local Hot Rod shop and heard some interesting suggestions: 1. put the old Checker body atop a used GMC truck (or other 119 inch wheelbased) chassis; 2. put the Checker body on a new aftermarket frame 3. for simplicity, use crate engines (with warranty and a service network) Both 1 and 2 offer the possibility of vastly improved suspension and handling, and there are supercharger kits for Chevy 5.3 litre truck engines. Does anyone have any reaction to these suggestions? Thanks. -Chris
yes: 1) easier said than done 2) what aftermarket frame are they talking about? 3) crate engines are easy and there are some great deals...but there is nothing like rebuilding your own engine. i put crates in cars i do for others , for my own stuff i rebuild do you have the ability to rebuild a engine? do you have the ability to do a frame swap?
if its a 57 ford front end66 and later galaxie and ltd disc brakes is an easy conversion i heard and with the engine since its not a traditional build why not a new LS chevy engine and auto with overdrive and the seats from a mercedes SL (R129)96 and later.Got Leather, Power ,and the seatbelts mounted in the seat
If this thing drives,...Drive it. build a Big small block chevy, and swap it in next winter. Find out if the front spindles are really Ford, if they are swap discs on those spindles...Drive it. look for SUV interior, cool new leather, w/heated seats and rear headrests use it all, dont forget the overhead console...Drive it. A total tear down (front end,running gear and interior) Is a whole lot of work at once. many a cool car has died of best intentions. also, some math Th400 trans...$750.00? 700r4...$1750.00? how far are you really going to drive it? a grand will buy a lot of gas, if your only driving it a dozen times a year...but...It will pay off quick with a 30 mile commute. oh...Drive It
CalgaryChris; Almost any car in the world will tow one like it on a trailer, it's done all of the time.. Proper hitch package and trailer brakes are a no-brainer. I wouldn't consider depending on the brakes on the tow vehicle alone. Actually, unless you get a heavy duty truck, most suburbans/econoline vans/SUVs won't weigh any more than your Marathon. In that regard the Marathon is a safe tow vehicle. Other than having more power to get you up to unsafe speeds.........oh well you got the drift. Did I say if you are going to tow a trailer it needs it's own brakes?
Sitting here in Mojave waiting for the checker to go by.. Your gonna love the Buick... Just messing with you... Enjoy your project... Half the fun is the build..
I rebuilt an Olds 455 once - it had piston slap. It ran well - the tires did chirp on that '76 Delta 88. Once the motor was done, the transmission died and was rebuilt (not by me). I took some courses on restoration and did manage to patch the holes around the rear glass with steel and pop rivets. It was a good driver and a great training vehicle. Man could she tow. There is something to be said for a cheap car that works well. It had that seven foot long crumple zone, plus, those new BMWs seemed to give it space as it "looked as if it had killed before and might do again". I think they call that "the power of the least committed" in psychology circles. All in all, I will need help with this project. I do appreciate the pearls you cast my way. -Chris
My dad used a '68 Marathon for years as a towing vehicle. It had an inline chevy 6 and 3 speed trans. He often towed a 21 ft tandem axle trailer with 2x8 steel frame, 2x6 hardwood deck, 3ft sides and electric brakes. He taught me to drive a clutch on the road by starting on the east side of Detroit at 4:30 am and said the goal was to get past Dearborn before the morning auto worker rush. We had that Checker with a 4500 lb load of lumber and supplies. After that I logged thousands of towing miles behind the wheel of that thing with all sorts of trailers. We towed lumber, farm tractors, cars, trucks and even a one car garage once. It was modified with overload springs, heavier rear shocks, trailer brake controler and a Reese hitch. Oh yeah, it had a glass pack muffler, too.
Don't take this the wrong way but......... Its going to cost some money no mater what way you go, serious money. Motor, gearbox and bake up grade will cost a few grand. Then with the other little things like the seats and what not will be at least another grand. Now the most important question as I see hasn't been asked. How much do you like this car? The money you lay into this car, you will never see again. Is it worth it to you to spend money on this car? Or should you look for a car that you truly want to lay money into? I know you want it as a daily but to put this in an example.......... Joe blogs buys an off brand more door because it was cheap and he wants a project car. Puts his money into it but all the time he is lusting after a 49 Ford. Six months down the road he sees a shoe box for sale and thinks If I can just get enough for this car (God knows he put enough into it) he could get his dream 49. No body wants to buy his car, when it does sell he looses more than half of what he put into it. Now he doesn't have his project car or his dream car. Financially he is at square one and has to save big time to get another car. Rather than saving for a bit longer at the start and getting what he really wanted he bought the off brand car and put the money into that. If he had saved longer he would have the 49, now he has to wait a couple of more years until he is financially stable enough again to look at another car. So what I am saying is only put money into a car you love, don't put money into a car because thats what you got or thats all you can afford right now. Its better to wait a little longer and put the money into something you intend to keep for a long time. Honestly, one of the guys I grew up with did this and lost a shit load on a car that just isn't desirable, sold it and almost ten years later is still saving to get another car. Well, hope this helps but if you love the car, I mean seriously LOVE the car disregard the above an go for it. Doc.
assuming your going to be pulling a camper trailer and assuming that your going to be heading up hills, which you will be if you go anywhere west of calgary, you won't be happy with the 283's performance. IMO you need a 350 minimum.
Yep. At age 73 this week, I've done my share of towing in the past. More combinations than I want to bother recounting. Armed with the simple knowledge of the limitations of any tow vehicle, a sensible driver has only one really consequential issue to deal with. I'll recount one such case. We used to haul hogs in a Model A pickup, pulling a trailer full behind. About 4 schoats in the pickup, 10 to 15 in that trailer. The trailer was a 4 wheeler, converted from a 30-something chivvy chassis. One rule to follow. Don't over-drive the braking capabilities of the combination. With brakes, the modern systems of today on the trailer that we didn't have then, , its a piece of cake. When it falters going uphill, downshift. When cresting a hill, plan ahead.
CalgaryChris; I can dig the potential bling-factor of rig to tow a Checker with a Checker. I can see myself proudly blasting into the show ground in granny gear with pipes rattling at Checker events. I can wrap my brain around that idea. To tow it with a more modern vehicle, for the sake of comfort and convience seems to diminish the premise of it all. Of course if you read my profile you can guess that my choice of power on the designated tow vehicle would be a 250 or a 292 L6, since many Checkers came stock with the 250....... I would use the Offy 3-1s Intake with dual straight pipes. Whoa Nellie!!
if you do decide not to keep the 283, i would be all but happy to take it off your hands. i wouldn't do a chassis swap. unless you don't mind all the work, a front clip swap would be easier that way you dont have to make holes/ mounts for your body to fit on a newer frame. but thats just my 2 cents and thats all its worth.
Thanks for the opinions. I won't tow often and I could use a dolly instead of a full trailer. I do have another car - a 1968 Checker Marathon sedan - but it needs a floor repair before it will pass safety inspection. It also has a mouse problem, having been in a friend's barn for a decade (I didn't want to use poison as my friend has pets). This car has a Checy I6 - likely a 230 cid, but I have to fetch the casting number. Perhaps I will ask the shop to get her running and fix the floor, then rebuild the I6 with say a Clifford 6 = 8 header and head kit, perhaps with a lump kit over the next Winter. I sure am impressed by the range of suggestions and philosophies. One I liked best is "the difference between a struggle and an adventure is attitude". My best road trip involved breaking down at 0200 hrs near Custer's Last Stand,getting a tow to Cheyenne, carrying my empty, fan blade bitten radiator to a rad shop, having them fix it and pressure test it, then putting my car back together again by early afternoon the next day. I felt it was an adventure, not a trial, and I will probabkly do it again - though these things are hard to schedule! -Chris
Chris; I talked to tlowe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqcfJjvXO64&feature=player_embedded# at length. With the lump kit and larger valves you can expect up to 30 more horsepower with stock cam, just due to the inproved air flow. I have one in the works for my Nash hot rod. I too am considering buying the clifford performance cam kit.
I've spoken to a fellow who does restoration/modification/moster truck builds as a vocation and he suggested either an entire chassis from a donor wreck or a Mustang II front end from Heidt. To improve handling both options have merit. Does anyone have a preference?
There are at least three good, picture-filled threads on the HAMB that cover each option - look at the pictures and measure what they are doing against your skillset and wallet. I personally like a frame swap - you get more new components - but it might be more work. I get the impression that a frame swap needs more sheetmetal working skills and less frame welding skills (but I've never done either one). If you have to redo the floors anyway, a whole frame swap is maybe not too much more work? Check out something like a Ford Explorer as a donor vehicle, whatever you choose should have the right width rear end. An Explorer, and if it's the right year, will have disc brakes, maybe even a nice 5.0 (Ford 302) roller motor. For a 4000 pound wagon I'd want 300 ft/lbs of torque minimum, so a good-breathing small block at a minimum. And we want pictures!
Someone suggested galaxy disc brakes will swap in, dont know if its true, but that would be all you would likely need for mild towing duties. No mater what it wont tow like a brand new GMC 2500 pick-up. UNLESS, you put a fullsize truck frame under it. I think a properly rebuilt suspension, the right tires, and a nice disc brake set up would be all you need for a good safe driver, that can tow another fullsize at moderate speeds when driven safely. Know the limits of your rig, know when the hold 'em and know when to fold 'em.
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