Messing with a VIN tag can get you an orange jump suit!

Some of the comments here, although I'm sure well intentioned, share the same error: that the public's comprehension of civil and criminal law is, if not complete, at least accurate.
This is not true. All of those rich phrases used, in place of rational argument, are not applicable. There is no presumption of innocence, no burden of proof, no right against self-incrimination, no right to privacy as to motor vehicle ownership because the Constitution doesn't grant it as a right.
we all know that first they have to prove all malicious acts and prove intent.
They don't need to prove anything to impound your car, they just do it.
The concept of "mens rea" (bad intent) used to be a bright line between civil and criminal law: you had to know what you're doing is wrong, or it's not a crime, such as buying a stolen part in a swap meet that had no numbers on it for about 1/2 what it should cost. No red flags here, right? In Kalifornia, that's "possession of stolen property" - it's your responsibility to determine where the seller got it.
About 25 years ago the Justice Department decided that this interfered with their ability to screw people over, and somehow the Supreme Court hasn't gotten around to looking at it. Example: they search you and you have too much money - therefore the money is drug money and will not be returned, even if they never charge you with a crime. Since you aren't found not guilty, you don't get it back. "Prove intent" is history.
By impounding your car, they are only alleging that either:
1. it's not safe
2. it's not inspected, insured, etc.
3. the proof you offered for ownership is not satisfactory
They don't have to charge you with anything - they just keep it.

Why are these laws good?
Because they're the only thing preventing me from stealing everything I can get, popping off the tags, repo-ing them with rivets, and selling them out of state with Alabama titles. That's why the Fed requires multiple VIN locations, standardized VIN characteristics (alpha-numerica, 17 digits) - and it still happens.
In TX/AZ/NM etc. they still do, and ship them across the border since the Mexican government (!) doesn't care.

 

If that is typical then those nazi cops are stepping into deep shit, they have no right to do that without probable cause.
Sue them and the city for all they are worth and get a new bike out of it.

 

The vin tag on my 37 chevy p/u was screwed on originally but is riveted on now.

 

go get another hobby

 

Sure they do and it's not just that one bunch of cops. Are all the DUI checkpoints/road blocks legal. No probable cause there, but they do it.
Law enforcement officers can do just about anything they want and REALLY like showing folks that don't believe it. Probable cause is a catch all that justifies almost any stop.
I am one of the old bike riders someone above mentioned. Things are better than they used to be. You could expect to talk to the cops every day or two back then on a road trip in the 70's. Just part of the deal, if you didn't like it you stayed home.
All this pie in the sky theory needs a reality check.
Larry T

 

BLA BLA BLA, go catch rapists, murderers, leave me and me altered vin model a couple alone

 

now whats the deal with swapping dashes and having to put the original vin back on the new dash, I don't see any kind of crime, it's the same vin thats stamped on my firewall, it's the original vin that came on the car, it's the same vin thats been on my title for ten years, and was on it before I bought the car, now where's the crime here? the car isn't stolen, I own the car, I'm putting the original vin plate back on the car, special rivets? if anyone questions my vin it's on the plate on the door sill, as well as stamped in plain view on the firewall by the factory.

 

On my truck, the VIN tag was completly missing. So, I just filled out a form at the County Clerk's office, and they sent me a remanufactured tag to affix to the inside of the door post. Then a law officer had to inspect it. End of story.

So, before I would reattach, swap, or make my own tag, I'd just file for a lost one and pop rivet it to the door. Its legal in the eyes of the law, so it must be good enough.

 

my vin tag is pop riveted on from th factory, plastic dash, i don't see how they can tell the difference on the pop rivets, especially when it matches all the original body stamped tags and is obviously a factory vin tag. why go to the trouble to report it lost when I have th original title and original tag

 

without probable cause.

Remember that raid on the LDS sect with all the child marriages?
How did they get the authority for that raid?
They made it up.
One of them (or their wife, or girlfriend, or snitch) called in an "anonymous tip" that children were being molested, and a Judge signed the warrant, based not on the caller's testimony, but on the officer's perjured sworn statement that there was a caller.
When it turned out that there was nothing going on, they weren't going to admit they were wrong, so they just arrested everyone "for questioning" - a whole bus-load of them - 30 middle-aged women wearing long skirts and coal-scuttle bonnets, and carrying babies and Bibles. Sure looked dangerous to me.
When someone finally asked for the proof used to get the warrant, "they were unable to locate or identify the source". My bad.

It's been done before - need authority to do something? Make it up. It's how they raided Ruby Ridge, they told a judge they had reliable information ("he has a complete military arsenal"), and forgot to mention that:
1. it's not true
2. they made it up
3. on a prior application, another judge ordered them not to ask anymore

Waco? very simple "we heard he's molesting children" (Janet Reno). Except, again - they made it up.

 

Are all the DUI checkpoints/road blocks legal. No probable cause there, but they do it.

DWI stops are an interesting case. The SCOTUS decision is pretty simple: you can't stop people you don't like, or people who "look suspicious" and nothing else.
You can stop every car, every 5th car, every 20th car etc. as long as it's an actual written plan, made up in advance and followed on site.
If the plan is "10th car", and they stop the guy in front of you, they can't stop you unless you do something right in front of them.
How they get around this?
Because you're stopped anyway, waiting for the line to move. They just walk right up, and shine that big 5 million watt Mag-Lite inside looking for anything that gives them pause. Then they use this as a pretext:
"Is that a marijuana cigarette in that ashtray (screwdriver under your seat, open bottle on the floor, under-age girl sitting next to you)?".
"No".
"Anything in the trunk?"
"Only tools and a spare."
"Then, you don't mind if I take a look, do you?"
"Is this your friend? What his name, and what's he doing in your car?"
"When were you arrested last?"

No matter what your answer is, you're fuc*ed.

 

Willys jeeps and Willys Overland vehicles have small, panhead screws attaching the serial number plates to the bodies....so no 'special' rivets before or after the plates are removed from the body to paint or to even replace the entire body....easy enough,huh?

 

This VIN crap is what the old timers called "Flogging a dead horse"
Get over it and get on with some metalwork or build something or play with yourself. Do something interesting. You aint going to change anyones view on this.

 

this law is more intended for people running chop shops such as people buying a totaled out new lexus worth 60k and stealing one like it and switching vin tags. i don't think they will be busting some one that would be buying a 60 year old rust bucket from some farmer for 500 bucks with no title. there are legit ways in most states to get title for such a vechicle with a little leg work. in pa we could apply for a reconstructed title that requires alot of leg work but if you apply from the start of your build the delay will be less painful. there is also a way with special construction titles such as when you build a kit car from scratch. most antiques hot rods and custom cars have vin tags that were altered or i should say removed during there restoration process. how many high dollor restorations had body transplants only to use the original vin tag from the original body? how do you chop a car 3 inches or more with out tampering with the vin tag or even if you remove that part of the A pillar and reattach it you still removed the vin tag. if the vin plate was removed from the hirohata merc during it's build and reattached would you take it if it was given to you at the risk of the orange jump suit? would it be better if we just scrapped all old cars because there is no title or just sell parts from them? what happens when we get to the part of said vechicle that should have a vin tag attached to it? scrap it? somehow this needs sorted out from the people who are stealing late models and the hobbyists starting out with a 500 dollor car he actually paid for and rescued before it turned to dirt.

 

Panic........is so right.This is an interesting thread. Has anyone lose a car older than 1962 ? In 1980 I drove a forty coupe, like every day. Two R.C.M.P."s come to my work, tell me there seizing the car. Apparently the guy I bought it from didn"t pay the right amount of duty, when it came over the border.How much is it I"ll pay it. No were taking the car.( when they take it ,lots of money and grief to get it back.I phone my Dad. He"s up to date on the law. He phones this guys superior. Check this.They do seize it. But it stays in my possesion. I had to sign a paper stating that if anything happened to the car like (stolen burnt) I would be charged with theft of the CROWN. I"m innocent right? This guy is pissed. Ten days later I pay the new appraised value after i had finished it. The real shit part of this, is they didn"t want me or the car. They didn"t even check the car for a vin # They wanted the guy i bought from. They put me through all this shit to try and get info on the goof (Bad Dude) I bought from. Everything PANIC ....said is so ,so true . If my dad had not known the law it would have been a nite-mare. I respect all law inforcemet, sometimes it gets takin too far!

 

They want the law murky, It broadens the criminal base.

 

well mine came riveted on factory, i'll rivet the original one back on the new dash just like it was originally, I don't think anyone is going to analyze the rivets on a mid eighties car, if they don't like it they can look to see it matches the one under the hood and stamped on the body, and it comes back to me free and clear. when i go to swap it, i'll chain my shop doors shut, post some armed sentries outside, let the pit bulls loose in the yard, and stretch some camo net overhead. I'm not doing anything illegal, it's my car and has been for over a decade.

 

i look good in an orange jumpsuit !!!!

 

Something that freaked me out was when I bought my truck and had the title transfered into my name the lady behind the counter asked if it was green, and I said yes it is, then afterwards I looked at the title and it does'nt have a body color on it anywhere. Maybe ESP which to me = Extra Sucking Power

 

A friend of mine bought a 1991 Firebird from a used car lot where it had been sitting for several years.

The title said 1991, the insurance said 1990. Same vin.

Truck cabs, especially S-10's, get swapped pretty frequently around here. My cousin rolled his '87 S-15, put a 1991 S-10 cab from the junkyard on, and traded it in on another one from a used car lot. He got a phone call asking why the tags didn't match the title, explained it, and the dealer went on about his way.

 

That's no shit!

 

I guess Ricky won't be working at the MTO anytime soon.

 

I thought the sky was done falling.....

 

check out dumblaws.com. In the state of florida its illegal for an unmarried woman to parachute on sunday, for a man to kiss his wifes breast, its illigal to shower nude, and you cant have sex in any position but missionary and theres plenty more. Oh and its illigal to have oral sex. Wonder if my wife read that and thats why she agead to move to florida.

 

i feel very lucky...i have cars with no titles , i have titles for cars that no longer exist

am i worried? not really...most have my father's name on the paperwork. if they want to put him i jail..good luck....he has been dead for 22 years


you guys worry to much.

i had a few beverages with our county Sheriff tonight and he didn't seam to be concerned about it either

 

in Alabama we don't have titles for Classic Cars, of course you can marry your sister here too...... As a Native Floridian i always wondered how that worked when you transfer the title less car out of state?

 

It's true the law does what it wants and these deals that give them the right to sieze property are pretty badly abused... some southern state, Alabama maybe, if you're carrying a wad of cash going on a vacation or whatever, they can sieze it and your car under suspicion you're going someplace to buy drugs. And I just heard a story on one of the radio shows about a guy who was pulled over for DWI, blew some ridiculous like 2.4% on the brethalyzer - enough that he should have been passed out on the ground, apparently - so they arrest him, take him to jail, and sieze the car.

Problem is the meter malfunctioned, but by the time expensive lawyers got done proving him innocent they'd auctioned off his car. He is entitled to sue for the proceeds of the auction, but I guess not much else. So if it sold for less than market value, he's still partly fucked.

So the "state" is going to do what it wants to regardless. I would only expect it to get worse with time -

 

So what I've learned from this thread so far is
Don't Change the Vin unless you really know what your doing.
Never Trust Police
Never Move to Canada.
A Willis Jeep or Overland Title and matching screw on vin plates might have a marketable value.
New Posters on the HAMB tend to be Trolls.

Did i miss anything?

Troll: one who calls a radio show or posts on a message board something to just stir up trouble derailing the intended topic.

 

So if a man and woman get married in Arkansas and move to Texas and get a divorce. Are they still brother and sister?

 

In Texas it wouldn't matter, they would be Aliens.

They treat all Aliens the same....put em on a bus and ship em back!

An experienced Troll pops in every now and again too Hehe