Well, thanks to Tudor, I'm giving thought to how mechanical injection would work on the street. I believe the problem has always been that there's no part-throttle drive-ability. Is this because the fuel pump was driven off the cam, thus fuel pressure wasn't constant--it was determined by engine RPM? Could a modern EFI electric fuel pump with a return line be use to combat that problem, or is there more to the problem? -Brad
One of the problems is no acc pump which means the barrell valve must be set with more leakage to prevent flat spot when the throttle is opened,so the motor loads up. I am working on a clean way to hookup the vacuum advance to the dist to help this problem. Do a search the is some info on FI systems
there are mechanical looking injection setups that have hidden electronics in them. essentially efi with individual throttle bodies for each cylinder. i think moon was selling them for a while. they look great but aren't cheap!
hee hee hee - hey look up "hilborn mechanical injection" on ebay, there is a guy in Tennessee that claims he can tell you the set up. you have to try that injection set up on the dyno man. 500 horse 283 baby.
Kinsler fuel injection out of mich.can make anything fi work.Very good to work with.Might seam exspensive but they get it right the first time.
That would be WWW.Alkydigger.com I call him Alky Mike He's pretty good, got me going in the right direction with the MG. Pat
1) Um, i thought gm solved all the above problems from 57-65? So, one way to run mechanical fuel injection on the street is to get a gm rochester system? There is a guy in alabama (don't know the link, but someone here probably does?) who can teach you how to run/maintain it on a live, one-on-one tutoring basis. P.S., here is a really good manual that describes the system as well as mechanical fuel injection in general. i found it extremely educational: http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/fuelinjection/index.htm 2) If you're into homebrew, then i saw an article that can basically make it happen. But i'm sure of the title and where to find it, but i will look for it; You'll have to be patient as i have umteen other pressing issues to take care of. 3) One of my automotive goals (i think?) is to sucessfully run MFI on the street because i think it may be simplier than carburation. So, i'm interested in knowing about all this also.
it is tough to get enough vacuum with a individual vernturi setup to get a vacuum distributor to work , there just isn't enough flow to create good vacuum . a good centrifical distributor is a good start . the pump is driven off the engine so it doesn't load up off idle and by the time you got a electric pump working you might as well use the kinsler electric which uses mechanical bodies with electronic injection and , if you have the budget , is awesome . when it comes right down to it , isnt it the point of using a mechanical injection to have a on or off kind of power delivery , otherwise just go out and get a c6 crate motor and drop that in , it'll run nice and smooth . that said mechanical has come a long way and you should have a lot of fun if you just check out how those systems are set up these days .
If I cant get enough vacuum to work,I was going to try a belt vacuum pump from a 6.9/7.3 diesel ford truck with the valve for the vacuum modulator only hooked to the vacuum advance of the dist.
Kitch' ran an Enderle stack injector on his "If I have to go somewhere, I gotta drive my- 29 Ford Roadster" everyday! Now, the key to MFI on the street.. STICK SHIFT! Kitch' told me he would help me set up my 55 Chevy(which he hates.. specially cos it's.. Yellow!) ONLY if I run a stick! The Ebay guy is Alkydigger.. Its does work, but it's M, which is manual -Fuel Injection. It only does what you tell it..
Someone that knows sprint cars should chime in.I was looking at one with stack injection with a system to bleed the fuel off and send it back to the tank at idle.It looked like just a fuel log with a lever to go the the throttle setup.At idle fuel pressure was low until you opened up the throttle then it went up again.Just a thought... Steve
non-oem aftermarket racing type injections systems (hilborn, kinsler, etc) offer two states of operation: idle and wot. if you think you can drive around on the street with only idle and wot then it'll work fine for ya. btw simplex you missed the boat on mfi. yeah, we all know the oem stuff worked fine. tell us how much it costs you to run a rochester setup.
electric pumps won't work.. I'm using an electric pump only to push fuel from the gas tank in the rear, to a Holley DP resevoir attached to the core support. Now the Holley resevoir sets the fuel level in the spun aluminum tank out front, according to it's height placement on the core support. Now because i'm running on the street, the Enderle pump only puts out 2Gal/Min @ 2000 rpm- 3.8 @ 4g's. So I don't need a high speed bypass. I'm running a blocked off pill in the barrel valve, w/ a Kinsler external bypass pill holder in the return line. Now, to be able to adjust for weather, you would use a select a jet. Turn the dial to the pill to adjust lean/rich! An on & on..
Brad54, as you can tell from my avatar, I have Hilborn injection on my car. The biggest drawback to constant flow injection (ie Hilborn, Crower, Kinsler, etc) is that they have no way to automatically compensate for atmospheric changes in air density. So as a hot afternoon changes into a cool evening they run lean. That is the biggest hang up with mechanical injection. With regard to idle, mid-range, etc, they can do all those things. I hope this helps. Joe
To deal with the vacuum issues, which were mentioned above, I run a mechanical advance Mallory mag. The mag helps because sometimes the injection runs fat when the air density changes and a mag will light off anything.
Aaaaaand we've hit the point of diminishing returns for me! Thanks to everyone that contributed. Tudor is sitting on my shoulder with horns saying "Yeah, do it!" but it just doesn't seem like the thing to do. It'd be awesome for a full-race car, but I'll stick with my twin Center Squirters on the tunnel ram. -Brad
Boy! has this subject been beat time and time again. I run a 292 small block chev. in my 40 Willys coupe and I run it on the street. No special bypasses etc. Just a pump, set the barrel valve, about 7 percent leak down, .025 pill and away we go. Last but not least. Mechancial fuel injection likes lots of timing. Mine is set at 36 degrees full advance. Couple that engine with a four speed and a 4:88 Pontiac rear and you have one screamin demon. Just my two cents. Mine runs and works great. My idea is to work from the simple to the hard. With mechanical fuel injection, you cannot get more simple than this. As with anything there are rules and mechanical fuel injection has it rules, and play by them u must. If not then like anything else you put in shit you get shit out! From Deep In The Heart of Texas! 1940 Willys Coupe
I can't say much about domestic-type systems, but if you look to euros TONS of them used Bosch CIS (k-jetronic) with great results. I've owned 3 CIS cars over the years, one Saab and 2 Volvos. It was also used on Porsches, Ferraris, Benzes, and VWs. They are pretty straightforward to work with once you get your head around the basic principles. Just don't expect help from most mechanics, they won't even touch mechanical systems. It would look pretty strange, but I've wondered if Bosch CIS could be adapted to a domestic V8. It's a wild looking system, and parts are cheap if you can find them. If nothing else, individual components might be useful. For example, the fuel pump/damper system is proven, reliable, and easy to come by. It combines the function of fuel pump and surge tank into one unit and produces HUGE pressure and flow. EFI pumps are probably not suitable unless you look at the gigantor high pressure ones than big boost imports use. Most won't produce the line pressure you need. Talk to the Volvo guys. They have a serious love/hate relationship with k-jet and can be a great source for parts/info.
I will do this one day! Thanks for the input. It's great hearing from actual experience. I don't think this subject gets brought up enough.
Hell man, if you don't want to that fine!! ha ha ha BUT - what could be cooler than some mechanical injection on that motor in your "gasser". It would take you right out of the JOE DIRT category! Plus you have Lamar right there to try it out on the dyno.
not an expert but drove my 57 Chevy all over the place in the 70's 80's with a Rochester unit (6hr trips from Ukiah to Fresno)--no problems once we got it dialed in-sometimes a little hard to start when cold--wife drove it to work every day in Fresno with no problem-redoing the car again-Rochesters are very cam specific-and I never tried one with an automatic trans--idle was about 800 with 097 cam--currently toying with putting a 4900 unit (59) on my 40 coupe
.............. No, the responses aren't any better than they were the last 500 times. I'd explain it - again - but it's not what you want to hear.
What engine are you running? what's your goal for this? I assume it's mostly for "the look"? I was having a similar delema a couple years ago when I ended up building my own ITB injection system for a Northstar project. The Northstar had the advantage of having been designed with injection, but the same thing could be done to most any engine with some bone yard engineering. I used Suzuki GSXR 600 throttle body sets x2 and fabricated the manifold much like building a set of header flanges... but with injector bungs installed in them. ALL the sensors, injectors, fuel rail, etc, came from the original Northstar, so in effect the only thing I changed was where it gets it's air from. I used the engine in the vid as a mule to work out the bugs, but now that I've built a few I have no need for the motor sititng in my shop, so a bucket T project has begun and will include this motor with some stacks on the TBs of course. This was my first ever FI experience, and I've always been a points and carb guy, so if I can do it.... well, you know the rest. BTW, I have had another one of these in an O?T car for a year or more and it runs very well on the street. sorry for the poor vid, but my camera is old and out of date just like me. turn on your speakers anyway. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhoAR3UfLRo
Here you go fella's. It is all spelled out here in Popular Hot Rodding, September 1978. The rest will be uploaded in a minute.
Joe, What month/year is that issue, so I can try to hunt down a copy? Thanks! I will preface my comments by saying I have never attempted to run mechanical injection on the street, but have driven a sprint car with one. The comment that a mechanical injection setup works at either idle or wide open throttle can be true, if the injection is not sized properly for the engine, or the wrong ramp is used in the barrel valve. If the idle/wide open operation were true for all mechanical injection, these things would be useless for oval track use, and everyone would run carburetors. You have to have good part throttle operation to drive the car off the corner...the car would be undriveable if you had a big stumble, followed by tons of power. That's why you don't see Enderle hats, "Flying Toilets", or two/four port Hilborn setups on ovals...the throttle response is terrible. The problem is, most newer injections are way too big for a street engine. Some of the really early stuff might be small enough...I don't know because I haven't done it. I ran a 2-3/16" Hilborn on a 625 HP 360 sprint car engine...and that's a "small" injection. The barrel valve uses a ground spool to determine the amount of fuel that gets delivered vs. throttle position. The shape of the ramp in the spool is very critical to performance...and there are a multitude of ramps available. Some are basically on/off, for drag racing, while others are a lot more progressive. Not saying you can or you can't run one on the street...just that it's like anything else to do with an engine. It needs to be set up properly and appropriately sized to work...but there is not anything inherently wrong with them.
I am with 1940 willys.....IT WILL WORK,period. You do have somewhat of a flat spots during mid range,and you need to understand the system and how it works,but YES you can drive on the street. My system was copied out of the the aboue artical and beside the barrel valve leakdown(they say 12%,mine is at 28% and idle check they at 12%,Im at 2 %) it Works. The lack of mid range is very easily compensated by pushing the clutch,bringing rpm to 4500 and simultaneously release clutch and push accelerator all the way down. At that point a very large smile will imbed itself on your face and stay until the end of the day. I drive mine on the street weekly and race on weekends. One wise thing to do when racing is put the car in netrual (if stick) after crossing the stripe to avoid the pumps hi pressure pumping the system full of hi pressure. You can barely see the thrust tank with the return lines on the passenger side,it is the exact same as the above artical. Keep your duel quads,all the cute chicks DIG stack injection.
The Jalopy Journal
