I am thinking about trying out lead for the first time and am looking for any insight and how too's Is the nonlead stuff from eastwood any good or is regular lead the better way. where is a good place to get the tools or make my own? Any help would be appreciated
I have always wanted to try it myself. Someone chime in on how to get started, I think we are not the only ones here that might need some direction on what and where to get the proper equipment. Including books.
I've only used real lead and that was back in the late 60. It's quite a process that requires practice, the panel has to be tinned and kept at the right temperature to keep the lead in a plastic state with out melting and once you start you are committed it's better if you watch some one do it than try to read instructions watch a vidio if you can find one.
real lead is dangerous, but i don't like the lead free substitute. it has a higher working temp. the best way is to have someone that knows show you. you can find videos on youtube, look for bill hines
Pick up a body and fender text book from the early 1960's, leading was still being taught. Make your own tools, make a paddle out of hardwood from a pallet, bees wax container from a tin container, similiar to a Altoids Mint container. There used to be a tinning compound which was the second step, if you ever soldered a brass radiator you understand tinning if not a brief discription. The metal you are working on is ground clean just like for bondo, then using steel wool the tinning compound or solder is applied to the gently warmed surface. The steel wool is used to spread the tinning over the work area. Be very careful the steel wool is a fire waiting to happen!! Once the area is tinned, shinny silver firmly stuck to the metal you can apply the lead. GENTLY WARM the work area and apply the lead, lead should be of plastic or soft consitency. Dip your paddle into the bees wax and use the paddle to move the softened lead, building up the area that needs filling. Just like bondo do not make the lead overly thick. File to finish, and VERY IMPORTANT, nuetrilize the lead and surrounding area. Be very careful with torch and steel wool. Good Luck DT
I to have always wondered about working with lead. I had an old 33 ford roadster that had leadwork done back in the late 50's early 60's, and I was doing a little welding on the top of the firewall under the cowl and found the lead on top of the cowl where the cowl vent used to be....Well, I tried to figure out how to work it without any knowledge or help. Very long story short, ground out the loose lead and filled it with mar-glass. Are there any guys on the HAMB that are lead slingers? Not guys who shoot guns, but work with lead for body filler? If so, where ya at? Are you willing to let someone watch and learn from you?
I have in the past, offered to show folks what I know about lead but they usually walk away scratching their heads and buy a can of modern filler. The process that Designs That Work described is basically how you do it. Leadding is described as a lost art but there are still folks that do it.
Steve frisbie a Steves Auto restorerations in Portland Oregon has a very good video that shows the process well. I think what makes most people lose interest is that you "really" have to want to learn how to do this. Lets face it, modern fillers are alot easier to use and most people take the easy way out. It is a "lost art" because of the fact that people don't want to learn.
I't's a simple process, as 'desigs that work' wrote. But it does take practice, LOTS of it. The original lead ( and it's 70-30 or 60-40 alloy) is easier to work with. Lower temps, and larger working window of temp. I tried the lead-free stuff, and it's "OK", but not as easy as the old stuff. Tinning butter is easier to use than the old fashioned tinning process, but that's not difficult, either. Make your tools? Well, you need a torch with a lead tip, beesway, wooden paddles, and a couple vixen files. People DID make their own paddles in the old days. For special radius' and contours. But for utility work, one flat and one half round should be sufficient for 90% of what you do. Learn to work the stuff first, then tailor your own tools to fit the type of job you are doing, IF you have to. Also, lead is seen as dangerous. If you handle it carefully, and work it properly, it is NOT. It IS a solid metal, for the most part. you put it in a semi liquid state to work it. The important part is when you go to shape it, after cooling, you MUST use a vixen file. It shaves off the lead in pieces large enough not to be dangerous. DO NOT sand or grind the lead. that's when you'll have trouble. Tiny particles cand be ingested, breathed in, and absorbed by the skin, if small enough. THAT is where lead becomes a very toxic thing to deal with!
i wanted to do the same thing. bought one of those kits from eastwood. still have not opened it up yet. got lots of old books from car shows. a few of them show how to lead. i think one of them was tex smith. but he lead they used was real lead. not this newer high temp stuff like the other guys had mentioned.
amen, chopolds. never ever sand lead. also i've been told, when melting, lead gives off some toxic fumes or gases. always work in a ventilated area, i wear a mask but i think it is only peace of mind protection. practice on some old sheet metal the new crap has too much "other stuff" in it to give you good results. i usually only do pillars, sail panels, and quarter panel seams. i stay away from trying the middle of hoods or tops (anywhere that is prone to become tinny or warp easily). i've seen a panel go to crap on guys that taught me. they worked shops in the 50's-60's and slung lead everyday. just my penny
I understand the attraction to use lead, because that is what they used back in the day. If it is done right, it will make a nice repair, but if done wrong you jeopardize everything that goes on top of it. I've seen custom paint jobs that have had to be taken back down to metal to get rid of rust, because after the leading process was completed, the acids were not completely neutralized. YMMV
I'm a hands on guy I can't tell how I do stuff I just do it. I have only used real lead but would like some more feed back on it's substitute. I have used it for sculpting on the nose of hoods and subtle shaping. I Have no Formal education in lead I just got some and gave it a try. I sugest you give it a try as well. Get some junk parts and go for it at worst your going to make a huge mess. Oh and Bill Hines is awsome!!!! He some times goes to car shows and works where you could see him, The man is a lead artist. I think that is what it comes down to not so much a trade but an art form. Ah hell, how much was that lead subtititute stuff I will give that a try. Oh and it took several large messes before I made anything that would even resemble decent.
I worked at a Fisher Body/GM plant back in the late 50s-late 60s, and spent some time on metal finish jobs that involved working with lead. There were several joints on cars back then that were finished with lead, most involving joints that were first welded in a recessed area and then it was filled with maybe 1/9-3/16" of lead. These included the rocker to quarter and sail panel to roof. Others were sort of "wiped" to seal them, such as tulip panel ( the panel between rear glass and deck lid), to quarter panel,and welded joints in the door posts. There were guys who buffed all these joints with a wire wheel and then they painted each joint with a slurry made of lead tinning powder and a liquid rosin. The guys wiping and pulling the lead first used the torch (fueled by natural gas and compressed air) to melt the slurry and then wiped it with cotton waste. Properly done, the result was a well tinned area ready for lead application. The wiped joints merely had lead melted onto then by evenly heating the area and pushing a stick of lead along the area to melt it just enough to stick to the tinned area but not run off. Then it was wiped with more cottom waste along with just the right amount of heat from the torch. The result was a sealed and more finished appearing joint that was still visible. For the joints requiring filling lead was applied from a supply kept at a near plastic state in a steel tray which had a gas flame underneath. A quick shot with the big torch brought it to a workable state and then it was scooped up with a paddle lubricated with a liquid in another pan with more cotton waste in it. Some sort of oil, I never knew just what it's composition was. The lead was pushed against the tinned joint till it stuck. Then a careful and skilled combination of more heat and the paddle, it was spread over the joint. Just the right amunt, so that excessive work wasn't required to finish it, but enough to fill the joint and leave no low spots. Bear in mind that all this work was done to a body moving down the line at a rate of 35-40 cars an hour! Then the body went into the grinding booth, where men literally dressed in space suits with an air supply to the hood ground these joints to a finish. Next the body went thru a cleaning process, automated, to remove all the lead grinding residue. Next the doors and deck lid were installed and adjusted and the body went thru another wiping process that tended to highlight the surfaces to help the inspectors that were next to spot and mark the dents, dings, knots and solder joint imperfections that were inevitable. Now the metal finish repairmen took over and fixed all those dings and knots, etc. Sometimes this involved use of lead also. Next came the solder joint repairmen. We mostly used spoons and hammers on highs, and pried up or bumped up lows before use of a vixen file and hand sanding. The lead work done at these jobs was done using an acid to clean and then smearing a bit of lead stick with a different ratio of lead/tin for lower temp work, and then wiping it around to tin, then more of the same to fill the spot. This was done with a standard oxy-acet. torch with a bit of "feather" in the flame. As I said, outside the booth, all lead had to be hand filed and sanded. The bodies went thru several more stages of inspection and metal work, with particularly bad ones being pulled off into the "repair hole", till all the work was up to quality standards to be sent on to the paint dept. for "Bonderite" an alkaline dip, then priming and painting. Everyone who had ANY contact with the bodies after the lead was applied and before painting had to take a blood test, IIRC every 6 mos. And if your lead count reached a certain level you were counseled about your personal hygiene and habits, plus your interval of blood tests was halved. If you passed a certain level, they took you off the job you were on and moved you to somewhere away from the lead till it came back down. We wore freshly laundered coveralls every day, made sure to wash hands before any eating, drinking, or smoking, and took a shower before changing to street clothes after work. The area was meticulously cleaned several times a day between shifts and while the line was down for meal times. These precautions pretty much kept the lead problems down if you followed them closely. My blood count got a bit too high once, but that's a different story for another time. I did the metal finish repair and the lead joint repair both at various times,also the grinding booth, but never the initial leading jobs. Those guys could make it look so easy, like spreading soft butter on toast! Sorry for the novel, but this is not a simple procedure, and it can be hazardous to your health if proper precautons aren't taken, and I felt it deserved a full and detailed response. Dave
don't appologize for the length of that post, i found it very well put and needed. also information from "the horses mouth" is what is needed around here. i have dabbled in lead for a while now most times being overly cautious. it is a dying art form but doesn't mean you have to die for it.
Good description on the job,Dave.I found it to be enlightening.I enjoy hearing about how the cars were assembled back in the days before plastic toys became our mainstay.I also bought one of those lead "kits" to give it a try on some door jambs.Those of us who have never done a job like this appreciate the informative safety concerns.I,for one.will heed them.
I come from a different perspective. My first try, I just grabbed a bit of old linemans solder (said Bell Telephone on it), tinned the area, and filled it. No one told me what to do, but I understood the whole solid-plastic-melted thing. The truth is, you have to try. No pain, no gain. Eastwoods' kit is good, I've used it more than a bit. The crucial thing is the tinning - if the metal is not completely tinned (covered with shiny solder), then you are NOT going to effect a repair. Spread the flux, get it bubbling, then wipe it off (I use a rag). Key seems to be the heat. Once you have it tinned, then try to keep the lead plastic. You might get to a point where the metal has just gotten too hot - let it cool, grab a beer and wait. You can almost always spread new lead over old, but certainly you can let your current lead cool and then reheat successfully. No wordy description is going to do much, unless you are willing to just give it a go. Cosmo P.S. Did I mention that I still have no idea what a "lead tip" is?? Just get out there and try.
Check out this link: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=430349&highlight=lead Here's a copy of my entry there: The proper technique is to clean and tin the area where you're going to apply the lead. Work small areas at a time. You'll need a torch with a small tip, tinning paste, baking soda, laquer thinner, lard and wooden paddles; oh, and a respirator if you value your lungs. Eastwood sells the tinning paste and a nice little kit with paddles and lard. The lead sticks are WAY cheaper at other places. I haven't ordered in about 7 years, but I think I still have a source for lead (I'll have to check). Clean the area first with laquer thinner, then with a mixture of baking soda disolved in hot water. Rinse and dry the area so it doesn't rust there. Next, brush on the tinning paste and heat it in a small area just until the tinning paste turns brown. While it's still hot, wipe it off with a rag and it'll leave a nice shiney tinned surface. Wash it with baking soda disolved in hot water, then rinse and dry. Now you can start applying lead. Just heat the end of the stick and the area where you're going to apply it 'til they both start to get mushy like melting snow. If it gets to liquid, it's too hot. Now let it cool just a split second, then twist the stick and it will tear off a small wad where it bonded to the surface. Repeat this process until you've built up an area where you can mash it out on to make a fairly smooth surface. Flash the torch over the lard and dip your wooden paddle in it so it doesn't stick to the lead. Now flash the torch across the surface to soften it up again, and flatten it out with the paddle. Mash it out the best you can, so you can avoid a lot of unnecessary filing. That's about it. The hardest part is getting it to the right stage of mushiness without turning it to a liquid where it runs off, but with a little practice, you'll get it. All I can add is your torch should use a small tip with a neutral flame (not a blue flame, but not smokey). As far as safety goes, use a respirator, but not because of the lead - because of acid fumes. If you're vaporizing the lead, you're getting it WAY too hot. The acid fumes come from the tinning paste, which is mostly lead powder and acid. When you heat it up, it cooks out the acid, leaving the lead. It's not that hard, it just takes practice. The trick is to keep everything the same temperature, and neutralize the acid after applying the lead. Do as much shaping as possible with a wooden paddle so you don't have to waste it by filing it back off. NEVER sand lead, and have fun...
I did some lead on the front of a car that later got mangled pretty good. The lead stayed put and didn't come loose anywhere. I was sold. Learned from and old pro, which is a good way to go if you can find someone to teach you. I was a kid and he was an ornery old guy, but he made sure I learned it right. It isn't rocket science at all, just the discipline needed to do things right. Don't forget the dangers of modern fillers. Sand them without a good respirator and you could end up in big trouble down the road. I think slinging lead with common sense is safer than what I've seen some guys do with modern fillers. The rules for personal hygiene and washing clothes still apply.
Hey Theo, post up some pics of your lead work. Same goes for others who use it. It would be sweet to see the work in stages of finish through the lead working process.
Here's a good how-to on streetrodderweb. http://www.streetrodderweb.com/tech/0807sr_applying_lead_body/photo_04.html I'm by no means a master, but I get better every time I use lead (that translates to less of it ends up on the floor!!). I've used it with good results on numerous occasions. I especially like to use it in higher stress applications (like around rockers that may get kicked getting in and out) or in areas that I need to build up a little more than I'd feel comfortable with bondo. A simple propane torch works well if you don't have access to an oxy-acetylene torch. A lead tip is wide and flat...easier to heat a wider area. A normal torch tip localizes the heat too much, and makes it more difficult to control (but can be used). I saw someone previously say to neutralize the tinned area before applying lead...I've never done this nor does the article I've posted suggest it....only after applying the lead. I could be wrong on this but have never had a problem....would like to hear others input. The Eastwood kits are good. Never had a problem, but they are pricey. If someone has a cheaper source, I'd love to know. Also, a lot of peeps substitute trans fluid instead of the beeswax to lubricate the paddles.
Some of the posts in the link provided above mention using a pot of melted lead in the auto plants. I spent some years in both the GM plant I mentioned above from '58-'66 and later at Ford from '77-79 as a toolmaker in the body construction dept. Never, ever have I seen a pot of melted lead. Just a steel tray with 3 sides, mounted at an angle with the end with no side wall up slightly. This tray had a gas flame underneath that was adjusted to keep the sticks of lead/solder just below the temp for plasticity. A quck shot with the torch on this preheated mass got you just the consistency needed with practice and you then scooped it up with the paddle and pressed it to the metal. I can't even imagine what you'd do with a pot of melted lead on a car body! Dave
My Dad put newspaper down before he used the vixen file. He collected the shavings, and would later reheat in a ladel. Once it in a liquid state, you would see the impurities collect in the center. He would remove those, then pour the lead into a pce of angle iron & let cool. Amazing how much he still has. Lead releases acid as time goes on, but has a lot more integrity than regular plastic filler.
I use 70/30 from roto metals. Its $6 a stick and the sticks are 4x the size from eastwood. I bought approx 20 sticks, 2 files boards, 1 file base, 3 paddles, tallow butter and flux for 1round $140 shipped??? I got the paddles, files and the tallow from eastwood. The lead came from Rotometals. No offense to the eastwood kits, they are nice but too expensive for what you get. I guess the lead prices went up I recently. I got them for $3.50 a pound/ piece if I remember correctly..I know they were on sale with free shipping approx 2 months ago..Check out www.rotometals.com <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=4></TD></TR><TR><TD background=/v/vspfiles/templates/58/images/Grid_Single_Divider_Horiz.gif colSpan=4></TD></TR><TR><TD rowSpan=6 align=middle> </TD><TD rowSpan=6> </TD><TD background=/v/vspfiles/templates/58/images/Grid_Single_Divider_Vert.gif rowSpan=6> </TD><TD rowSpan=4> </TD><TD colSpan=4></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="100%">30-Tin-/-70--lead-BAR-Solder-1lb </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="100%"><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top width="64%">Price Per Pound $6.49 </TD><TD width="36%" align=right></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="100%"> 30 Tin / 70 lead BAR Solder 1lb ~ 1 lb Order how many pounds you want! each bar varies in weight, if you order 10 quantity = 10 pounds could be 8 11 bars Solid bar solders alLow Melting Point you to choose the flux that works best with your application Bar size is about 13.5" x .75" x .25" 30/70 Tin/Lead— Solder for machine and torch soldering. Approx Melting tempeture 361 496 F</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Man, it's really gone up! I think I paid $1/lb last time I bought it 10 years ago from Granite City, IL. I'll see if I can find that source if they're still in business.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=172583 Here you go...leading in the top of the bedsides of the Kopper Kart, where we changed the shape of it. Used lead instead of plastic, because the truck had a heavy tonneau cover on it, and I wanted something that would hold up to 'more tnan normal' abuse.
The trick with lead is to take your time. First thing is to clean the metal, Sanding, grinding or sandblasting to get it clean. Then apply the "Flux" or "Tinning Butter" Heat the fluxed area with a Carburizing flame about 6" long, when the flux turns brown rub your bar of solder on the surface and use steel wool or a scotch brite pad to wipe the solder over the heated area. This is called "Tinning" This base is what you add the solder too. Now heat about 3/4" of the bar of solder and the tinned area, when the bar becomes plastic or soft, push it on to the tinned area. Then using the paddle (use a small one to start) move and shape the solder on the panel. Now your ready to add the next amount of solder. The trick here is to heat the first area of solder, the tinned area your adding too and the bar then add the soft solder to the first application and shape it up. This gives you the idea. Remember to work from the bottom, up. (Heat travels up!!) Once the repair area is filled then you must wash the solder with lacquer thinners to remove the oil or wax from the paddles and then wash the area with bakiing soda and water to neutralize the acid in the flux. This is the real down fall of solder. One guy I know use to boil a kettle of water and pour this over the area and then dry it off. To kill the flux. Now you can file the area to shape and sand it with 80 grit paper to finish. The great thing about solder is, if you have a low spot you can hammer it up and file the area until its straight. When your adding the solder make sure that the new application of solder melts into last one. When you file the solder and you see a faint line between the applications then you will have to redo the area. if you don't a crack will form in the solder and your paint work!! Solder is only dangerous when you grind it or sand it, so don't grind it and use a respirator when your sanding it. The Old Tinbasher"
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