Bracket Racing vrs Heads Up Racing

All I hear is guys with slow cars wanting bracket racing to make things "even". Sounds like whining to me. Heads up or nothing. I use to live at the local track when I was in college. I went to almost every test and tune/heads up race I could. Running or watching. I went to watch the brackets once, maybe twice a season. They are BORING. Boring to watch, boring to race.

If you want to win, build a faster car

The Spokane track use to (maybe still does?) do arm drop racing late on Friday nights. Supposed to be like street racing. Sounds like fun to me!

 

I finally agree with you on something on this thread casey.Alot of good info was lost on the Hamb Crash yesterday .I wish Storm and those other guys would chime back in and repost what they were saying yesterday ,because i didnt get a chance to read but a little before the thread got lost .Lots of good imput by these guys as well though ...

 

Oh yea the main thing I hate about heads up racing (god I hate those words)
is that the flathead powered 50`s style 32 ford me and my dad started in 1979
to tear up the nostaliga races now gets to sit there with no one to race ?
or run against cars 3 seconds faster or slower why bother .
I here tulsa still has a good race

 

Heads up will always have my vote ! Matter of fact ,at our local track they will be running some heads up classes this year . Gotta love them guys at speed channel ! Big come back ,for the arm drop !!!!!!

 

I think for local or regional type Nostalgia racing to work, you're gonna have to keep things simple. The more rules you have, the more complicated things get. To P&G and weigh the cars would be bad enough, but how are you going to handle protests and tear downs. You wanna pull your heads at the track?
About the only way to get away from this is to run dial-ins or indexes. Either should work pretty well. Visually inspect the cars to classify them, and then run time trials. Then either have the cars dial in or pick an index and run them.
To keep things interesting to the spectators, how about a no electronics rule (we didn't use them "back when") and have a no sandbagging rule with officials on the top end to see who's messing with the throttle and brakes enough to be noticed. If someone does, DQ them. Shouldn't take long to have good racing going on.
Larry T

 

Thats makes me feel a little better .Atleast thats one race i dont have to worry about changing to Brackets ...

 

For Nostalgia events - Heads up. That's where it all started, why change it? It's a combination of what the vehicle can do and the driver. We go to these nostalgia events for the fun of it - not trophies, not awards and not recognition. If you want bracket racing just so you can stand a better chance at winning something - I think your missing the point.

 

You nailed it .Thats what sets us apart from the mainstream of racing ,and why i only go to local track (very seldom) to test and tune ...

 

What's the difference in dial ins and running in an eliminator bracket after the class winners are decided?
Larry T

 

They make portable weight scales I had my Comet weighed at the track on one.

 

Why cant we have more classes at these events ? Here is some examples that i am thinking about :

Small Block ,naturally aspirated ,plain street tires ,lite car (model A 's ,etc)
Small block ,naturally aspirated ,slicks (10 wide and under),lite car
Small block ,naturally aspirated ,slicks (unlimited width) ,lite car

Small block ,naturally aspirated ,plain street tires,heavy car(55 Chevy etc)
Small block ,naturally aspirated ,slicks (10 wide and under),heavy car
Small block ,naturally aspirated ,slicks (unlimited width ) ,heavy car

Big Blocks ,same as above
Big Blocks ,same as above
Big Blocks ,same as above

Big blocks ,same as above
Big blocks ,same as above
Big blocks ,same as above

Blower motor ,slicks unlimited ,lite car
Blower motor ,slicks unlimited ,heavy car

Nitrous motor,slicks unlimited ,lite car
Nitrous motor ,slicks unlimited ,heavy car

There is 16 different classes ,not including dragsters and the Flathead ,6 cylinder thing ...

 

I used to run heads up in G stock way back when with a stone stock 69 Cutlass that ran 2.4 seconds slower than the national record at the time and almost always ended up having to run against a purpose built race car that either ran on or held the national record. That pretty well soured me on class racing or heads up racing in classes.

I can see the fun in heads up arm drop racing where you get to choose off with who you want to and run for the fun of it but it might be hard to get up enough cars in some places to make it interesting.

We also have guys like Casey who will run all day in the brackets if you let them and have a ball doing it where they might find one car to maybe run against if you start dividing things up by cubic inches and what not.

Probably the best would be brackets for those who want to run and a couple of heads up classes with logical breaks like 12.5 (roll bar requirement most places) and go out and have some fun.

 

Most of the guys I know who go sit in the stands at the local track just want to see lots of racing with little down time in between passes no matter if it is 8 second heads up cars or ten year olds in their little dragsters. Put the cars on the track and run them and run them hard.

I haven't raced on the track since I ran G stock at Temple Academy when I was at Fort Hood in 1969 and that was heads up in my class and usually ended up with me getting my doors blown off by something like the 62 Chev 409 4 speed wagon that ran on and had held the national record several times while I was 2 seconds off the record with my 69 Olds Cutlass S. All I know is that I could run 14.25 on a 12.69 record and he could run 12 somethings all day long.

Face it like or not brackets got started and popular when guys got tired of getting their doors blown off by purpose built cars and still wanted to race their street cars.

Show up at the drags with a 390 and four speed in your 56 Ford two door and all the sudden you were stuck in a gas class with cars with 10% set back engines, no interior and a full cage that ran three seconds or more quicker than your hot street car that could blow the doors off every 396 Chevelle in the county in street races. But you had to run him heads up because your engine size and car weight said so.

I've got a friend here locally who has raced the same car for the past 20 or so years every weekend that the track is open. He runs in the 14's as far as I know and spends very little on the car but has a ball and I see his name in the paper every week as either winning his bracket or placing in it.

Maybe what is needed is a bit of both. Brackets for those who want them especially when we have guys running every things from fairly stock flatheads to full house hemi's and a couple of run what ya brung heads up classes for those who want go that way.

 

Heads up, if you lose, you evidently ain't brung enough. that's what makes you try to go faster. Lippy

 

I really dont care about a trophy or money hell it cost a lot more money
just to get there then you could ever win
I just want to race my car and have a chance of making it to the finish line first or maybe to the next round on a even playing field.
and not be put up with a car that is no where close to mine

 

And that's what killed class racing on a local level. The guy with the most disposable income wins EVERY week.
I've seen folks just load up and leave when Carol Caudle used to show up at the local track. When you don't stand a chance of winning at the track, fishing starts to look real good.
Larry T

 

Yeah I know, and I guess each of the clubs putting on the races around here could buy or rent some.
A lot better than having somebody guess weight for you and giving up a couple of tenths.

Tim

 

Bracket racing to the fans is confusing at best. Watching the super classes even worst. Seeing two cars take off then shut down and then start again is painful to watch! I understand heads up racing leads to the same guy with all the money winning. My suggestion would be to handicap the races by the cars best ET...The important thing is its a race to the finish line, 1st one there wins! How do you set the et's? everyone knows what each others cars runs. Their best run becomes their new "national record" that they have to use for their base ET. Here's a photo of a race between me and my Screamin Eagle funny car. I had NHRA driver John Hedley drive the Eagle and I drove the Willys, he gave me a two second head start, at the finish we were side by side...I had a TON of people come over and tell me how cool it was!

 

I don't know much about this racing stuff, but i do know that i would like to race my 40 ford against someone that i can race and not watch blow by my old car. So i vote to which ever class would put me in with similar timed cars?. i had a hard time on deciding on using a MSD style distributor in my motor in fear that i would have to race some modern drag car with coil-overs nitrous or something to the sorts. I would never go back just to watch some hi tech race car beat some old car by a mile. Cubic inch, Weight, Auto or Manual would be nice way to class them but i never raced anyone. Hope to learn this year.

 

I wondered what "national record" meant is that your best time of the day
or the best time you have ever run ? every day is different

this is so simple it`s stupid why the hell are we not doing this instead
of racing cars with 3 seconds differences and calling it a race.
I want to race.

 

I agree with Mr48chev,, there is room for both/all. I ran E/MP at Temple in 69 thru 73 had a 68 Camaro (P&S Racing) and my business partner ran a 66 Nova F/G (Boss-a-Nova), out of Wolfman's Speed Shop in Killeen. We should have been the ones to beat, but it doesn't work that way all the time. We won our share of races,, but there were cars that showed up that would blow our doors off,, (Reher Morrison Shepard E/MP record holder) ( Ground Shaker E/MP out of Austin) Willis Ragsdale, August Hartcrof, Butch Lake, Kenneth Coonce, Wayne Barret to name a few. These were all index races,, and then the winners would run for King of the Hill, on indexes. That was fairly close to bracket racing if you could run close to your index.

I do remember running that 62 Chev 409 wagon for king of the hill a few times (that car was ordered from the Chev dealer in Killeen by a Sgt out on post).

 

My 2 cents...........Structure some classes with weight to cubic inches,limit tire size, factory iron heads, solid lifter cams only, etc.

And I feel a great equilizer would be to put an official starter on the line again instead of the computer in the timing tower. And then limit the Christmas tree to Pre stage, Stage, and then Green Light GO!! When both cars are staged the starter can hit the green when he feels like it. Whether its 2 seconds or 7 seconds it would never be the same from one run to the other.

As for Bracket racing? If you allow electronics then you might as well buy an X-Box and just stay home. Aside from that, whether your on foot, on hoof , on skids or on wheels what other form of RACING can you become the winner by putting on the brakes?

 

As a 24yr plus bracket racer I have managed to get the most out of very little. Brucce Larson said if you win 10 percent of the time, you are doing alright. My dream ride is Pro mod but watch how those guys struggle to get all that power to the ground. I prefer heads up but I stubbornly stick to bracket. I have raced where the track would call slowest cars first til the money round. Had fun dialing 6.83 and beating the 12 second cavaliers. Anyway I say qualify for heads up and run the ladder cause the fastest doesn't always win. peace

 

That looks like Hallsville in your video Shocker - is it? Made many passes down that hill

 

I race for fun. So heads up is my choice. I am always thinking of some way to faster. For brackets, its not how fast you are but how consistant. You need to run the same number everytime. This is easier to do with a slower car. I can make my race car run cosistant 6.50 in the eighth. So its all about how good a light we cut. So it seems to me, all you would have to do is run for 60 foot. Less wear on the car. For me, the format at the HAMB drags works great.

 

My nova is going to be built straight axle and raced heads up at DOTD etc. I'm sure that I'll lose a bunch, but I'm not doing it for the money I'm doing it for fun. I don't care about watching brackets I don't like having to explain how it works and why it's done when I bring people to the track and I don't have fantasies of being a great bracket racer one day.

 

Index racing can be done by only allowing mechanical throttle stop that limits travel at the gas pedal (a bracket with a bolt that can adjusted, but must be locked down before you run), pnumatic, electric, or air powered throttle stops are not alowed, just like in drag boat index racing.

 

Motor claiming-doesn't work, I raced circle track, $500 claim for motor, had $3500 into my motor, raced against $10,000 motors. Usually can only claim once a season and they know they are being claimed before the race starts, so they throw the race. And your the scourge of the pit area if you did claim anyone.

Restricted plates-works for dune buggies, however as in Nascar, $ speaks HP.

Spec motors-again $ wins

The only thing that I have seen work and could work here is a spec tire. And not from a promoter or linked to a promoter (as in circle track where you have to buy the spec tire from the track, both the promoter and tire co make money on you). In my case they spec'd the softest compound tire they had. One race, one rear right tire. $120 for a tire-$200 for the winner. I think 10th place was around $16. However, there is a series south of us that specs a super hard compound. 4 tires last all season (wear). Not a lot of traction, but not allot of traction for all.

I believe there was a post here before about cars smoking all the way down the track. Well, if you spec'd a 8 inch harder then concrete pie crust slick, I don't think $'s would play as much as skill.

But what do I know, I have never been to a drag race track....

 

Bracket racing came about because many racers were complaining about racing the same car every week and getting beat, he must be cheating. They never really understood that their car fell into a certain class, that the other car was built for. A simple example would be a guy that removes his front bumper off his 55 Chevy and has a basicly stock 283 3 on the tree. He runs up against a fuel injected 287 with a 4 speed slicks, glass nose, the whole deal. So, bracket racing was born, in theory it put everybody on an even keel.After a while, racers complained about bullshit bracket racing, yet these were the very same people for the most part that complained about getting beat every week by the same car. Sometimes you just can't keep some people happy. Then the fans really never got a handle on it either.

The only real way to level the playing field I feel, is through money. Every body races their respective classes, basically put on a show, everybody gets paid a percentage of the pie. A bigger cut to the faster cars and less of a cut as you go down the ladder, or even simpler, just split the money evenly. The other alternative I think is something NASCAR came up with about 40 years ago. They had a class where the racers ran a claimer motor, meaning that if a guy kept winning, he could be protested, if found legal, he had to sell the motor to the other racer for a pre determined set price. I think if you put a limit on a total car, that would eliminate chassis shops from having an advantage, same with engine and tranny builders. I really think the money cap is the only way for a level field. But try and convince a guy with a blown Hemi 41 Willys he has to sell it to a guy for say...20K.....not happening, but that would eliminate running up against a car like that.

Any other way, it is only a matter of time before someone dominates. Look at NASCAR cup cars with all their limitations, still run over 200 MPH, look at top fuel with all their limitations, still running well over 300 MPH well into the 4's.You would not see a T/F car go that fast say with a 15K cap on the car. I have kicked around some class rules for this very reason, just incase they get another track out here on the Island.

We had some classes at a local 1/8 mile I worked at as a kid. We had SFB, AFB, BFB and TBC. TBC was anything with a 2BBL carb period. BFB was anything went up to 302 cu in I think. AFB was up to 389 cu in and SFB was anything went. Way back in the day....you had some rocketships in SFB.......but that might be to impractical to police today.....but it was fun, way back then..........Good luck with your research