I want to make my own suspension parts should I use grade 8 or grade 5 bolts when I am welding to them? And should I heat treat the parts after welding, if so how do you folks recommend I do that. Thanks Waterbucket
No intro, then some half-assed post about making some suspension parts out of welded nuts and bolts?? Where the hell did the old days go, the days when a newbie would get hazed unmercifully for just this sort of thing. You know, like *I* did, esp. after the atomic punk page comment, back in '99... Cosmo
Some suspension parts can be fabricated, depending on just what your trying to fabricate of course...BUT the important thing is that the fabricator KNOW exactly what he's doing. If you need to ask the basics then maybe you should just buy your parts as you complete the learning curve. Suspension isn't the place to practice!!! Thats NOT a jab at you or your abilities...just a lean towards safety.
Ok let me start over, my name is Mark, I am 47 years old, I am from Cincinnati and a Machinists by trade and have been building Hot Rods since about 1980. I have a 1923 T that has been on the road about 20 years and a 1941 Willys pickup with a blown small block 4-speed and has been tubbed. I have done all my own frame work which includes welding and machining, narrowing rear ends and about anything else including some upholstery. I have fabricated and machined many parts for builders in the area. I would like to fabricate some 4-bar parts for a Model A truck I am building, mainly the adjustable 4-bar ends. I will be welding bolts grade 5 or 8 to tubing for the urethane bushings. Any advice with this process would be a great help, or advice to fabricate or buy.Sorry I got off on the wrong foot with some folks. Thanks Mark
GRADE 8....for the bolts... on your joints always install a washer bigger than the eyelet...i had a friend that a socket pulled loose . a washer would have saved him. Grade 8 bolt capability in yield (stretch) = 130,000 lbs / in2 x .03349 in2 = 4354 lbs minimum Grade 8 bolt capability in tension (failure) = 150,000 lbs / in2 x .03349 in2 = 5024 lbs minimum Grade 5 bolt capability in yield (stretch) = 92,000 lbs / in2 x .03349 in2 = 3081 lbs minimum Grade 5 bolt capability in tension (failure) = 120,000 lbs / in2 x .03349 in2 = 4019 lbs minimum
There are a lot of overly sensitive people here Mark so I wouldn't worry about it too much. I believe once a bolt has been welded it loses it's grade rating. I've done similar projects and did not heat treat the bolts when I was done, no failures yet.
There is a good point here. When welding a grade 8 bolt, I would think the hardness is changed, so can quenching restore it? It also connects to something I've been wondering; when/if quenching metal, does that create a weak point where the quenched (hardened?) portion of the metal meets the unheated steel? I know this depends on what kind of steel& the application, but you get the idea.
Mark, If I am reading correctly you want to make your own 4-bar setup correct? If so I have a few ideas. But they previous posters are correct as you know, suspensions not the place to practice. Also with your setup you need to be careful with your geometry. Are you going with a lateral or parallel setup? You may want to look some ride characteristics with the different setups, for example how your roll center will change and any change of suspension bind. Although back to your question about the actual fab. If I were you I would not be welding bolts on tube ends to do this. They make weld in threaded inserts for this. Use chro-moly tubing and inserts similar to the one on this link (http://secure.chassisshop.com/partdetail/C73-812-2/). Take care... Good Luck
I think he is talking about the "rod ends" or "bushing ends" more correctly, not the threaded inserts in the link tube themselves......I think I would consider buying those parts from a reputable supplier and fab everything else for all the reason cited about loss of temper (the metal, not yours) and reduction in strength or embrittlement if quenched incorrectly. "Pride goeth before the fall" Ray
Yes I am talking about building my own 4-bar set up, the bars and the adjustable bushing ends. I think it may be better to use grade 5 bolts not 8, I believe grade 8 bolts become brittle after welding. Has anyone had any experience with this. I know you can purchase both cast and welded adjustable 4-bar bushings ends, so if somebody else is welding these up I believe I can fabricate my own. Any help or thoughts on this project would be a great help. Thanks Mark
Have a look at the video....http://www.welderseries.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_26&products_id=405
if i were a machinist i would make my own weld in bungs for the tubes! but as for welding nuts and bolts for suspension id try to avoid.my own life at risk maybe, but riskin others on the road i dont like. but ive got buddys that build off road trucks and build all there stuff outa chromoly and use grade 8 hardware no welding on the bolts
I believe what he's saying is he's making his own sleeves for the urathane bushings and is going to weld a bolt to this so he can thread into the tube end. Iv'e done this several times. You can use a GRADE 8 bolt as long as you fish mouth it to the right size for your sleeve. I TIG weld them for strength using 308L stainless welding rod. I've had no problem at all. I use to do this to have a 3/4 -16 thread. But now they sell a stainless one commercially. The only reason I would make one now is if I needed a speacial angle on the thread like for a set of hairpins to angle out to the axle. But if you want to make your own ends go for it. Then ones that MAS use to sell were MIG welded and nobody ever said they had any problems with them.
Am I mistaken that in some cases it's actually a pretty thick wall tube that's threaded or are they all a weld in bung?
Are you talking about fabricating something such as this? If so, take a look here....... http://www.suicidedoors.com/4-link-parts/4-link-threaded-studs/4-link-threaded-stud-jam-nut They claim that the stud self hardens when welded on.
There are 5 of those SD ends on a 4x4 van I built a few years ago. The customer beats the crap out of it, and they are just fine. There is one on the end of the panhard bar on my A too. ...and one sitting on my desk, all purchased already TIG welded. Too cheap to make.
I agree with the majority here. I'm a certified tig welder and I would worry about the weld before I worried about hardening. I'm afraid that I also think "hardens when welded" sounds like B.S. to me. You would probably want to send them to a facility to harden them in which case you want to ask about the grade of alloy steel to use before hand. And the stud and tubing would have to match (grade).
I have to admit it's not unusual that my first response to a question is that if you have to ask something like that, you have no business doing whatever it is. But I take great satisfaction in learning to do something new and having done it myself instead of buying a commercial part. So I thought I'd take this opportunity to thank those who take the time to explain the issues and how to do it right for those of us who don't know. I for one appreciate the time you take to type and photograph and explain.
If you are set on making them out of a bolt, use F911. It takes better to welding and will not become brittle. I've done it in the past for oddball sizes I can't find, just turn the head round on the lathe and cope it to fit whatever tube I am working with. But I generally just keep about 10 of these in the shop for wen I need them. http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/Billet-threaded-stud_p_1505.html The ones from suicide doors work great too.
Mark, you could blow half the guys on here and they would find something to gripe about. Probably cowardly pukes that wouldn't say shit if you were face to face!! The other half are great guys that will go out of their way to help you, thats why I keep reading.
I agree with you 100% Oldsub! At the time i posted we had absolutely no idea how experienced Waterbucket was or if he even knew how to weld. Lots of people are on here who have the dream but simply don't have the experience to safely pull it off all by themselves. We have to be a bit careful about the advice we dish out because you don't want to get someone into something thats in reality over their heads! People can get hurt like that. Certainly these bushing ends ARE homebuildable...but it takes welding skills/equipment of the 1st order...not someone who's in his basement garage with a 110 Mig. Who knew what Waterbucket had to work with!?!? (Thats not a dig BTW...I started a lot farther down the scale than that. A dirt backyard with a Lincoln stick!) The constant learning has been the most fun of all.
I am not trying to be discouraging, just cost effective. Spending $27 on something that you have to weld yourself, that costs $22 already welded is just silly, even if you are a really good weldor, with a really good welder. Use only DOM tubing. You can get short lengths of it here (prices vary randomly, cross check them against each other): http://www.onlinemetals.com/ http://asapsource.com/public/index.asp http://www.metalsdepot.com/ And don't forget to gently remove the plating from the hardware at, and adjacent to the weld area before welding. The gasses produced are not good for you and it can weaken the weld.
Thanks for the link. Please let me know if there's anything I can help with. gimpys, whose dollar figures are you referencing?
What did guys do years ago, before you could buy them out of a cat.? They made them. It was just a thing you did. Not all this worrying. I remember making them in early '70s. We used suspension bushings. If you are confident in your welding, go for it.
Time for a little HAMB Metallurgist training course. Welding any heat treated part will screw up the heat treatment in the area around the weld. The heat affected zone and the weld fusion zone will be altered and most design considerations would use base strength values for these areas. Base strength being normalized or annealed conditions which is how most steel you buy will be as-received. Grade 5 bolts are not heat treated, but do have work hardening which makes them stronger than Grade 2. Grade 8 are heat treated, and most times have threads rolled after heat ttreat so they get a little bit of work hardening there. I can't see pics in the replies at work here, but in general, if you are building suspension parts you want them to bend and not break. Very few things on most suspension are heat treated: springs and bearings as examples. All other parts: radius rods, A-arms, brackets, knuckles/spindles, tie rods, drag links are usually as-fabricated. As-fabricated means that they have some cold work from forming, some affects from welding, could be air cooled after forging (not quenched) or whatever else. Suspension bolts that are not welded on should be grade 8, that is just basic safety, use the better quality and higher strength.
Suicidedoors.com, for 1-to-1 comparison sake, since that is what another member posted. But now that you mention it, I see that your prices appear to be lower, and you are an Alliance Vendor! ^^^HINT^^^
Thanks guys for all the advice on this subject, I think I am going to use grade 8 bolts turn the heads down round and mill the contour to fit the tubing tight and then tig weld. I will take a finished piece to work and put the part in a press and bend and see what happens,hopefully it bends and nothing snaps from being brittle after the weld. I will keep you folks posted on the outcome. If I don't like the results I can always buy them. Thanks again. Watebucket
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