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My electrical problems are back...

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Kevin Lee, Dec 16, 2009.

  1. Kevin Lee
    Joined: Nov 12, 2001
    Posts: 7,584

    Kevin Lee
    Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    If you weren't following my problems before here is a link to my old post.

    Electrical Problems

    Short version of that post is I bought the truck, install engine and transmission, wire it, and drive it for several days. Then one day I try to start it and... DEAD. Basically what was happening is I ended up with the wrong regulator and was essentially running off of the battery until dead. I was sure that problem was fixed. I ended up buying the correct Ford regulator and everything checked out after installation.

    Multimeter showed around 14-15V as I revved the engine and dropped back to around 12 at idle. (from memory I had the meter hooked directly to the battery posts) And everything has been working perfectly since. Heater, lights, etc. Engine has been lighting off instantly.

    So now nearly a month later I am out in the driveway with the exact same problem. (yesterday) No warning. One day starts like nothing. Next morning, dead. And keep in ming that it is now colder (temp in the teens) and dark when I get off of work so I have been running the lights and heater a lot. No warning. Fine to dead overnight.

    So last night I leave a flood light under the hood pointed at the battery. Early this morning a light some charcoal and slide the coals under the oil pan. Let it heat up for about an hour. Try to start it one last time. Nope. So swap batteries with my late model and it starts. Quick check with multimeter on the battery shows 15V and the needle does not move at all when I rev the engine. I do this a few times and shut the hood. Getting late, need to get to work, blah blah blah. (forgot to check the battery before starting)

    Drive to work and everything is running fine, shut it off, try to restart and it is completely dead again.

    Things I know:

    1) (old) Battery was taking a charge right after installing the new regulator.

    2) There is no draw on the battery. (checked at the ground post with multimeter)

    3) All of my ground wires are good – secured with star washers and also checked out with multimeter. (touching one lead to engine, one to frame, etc.)

    And something I noticed but discounted as normal, but now think might be significant. When I'm on the road and rev the engine above a certain RPM the heater fan would speed up, then drop back after RPMs do. I just assumed it was working off of the 14-15V going back to the battery and dropping back to 12V after the regulator switched. And a few days ago the switch stopped working on all but the highest setting.

    So... I'm setting at work with a dead truck in the lot waiting for me when I get off.
     
  2. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 56,085

    squirrel
    Member

    Look over the battery cables and terminals very carefully. A bad connection will give you weird symptoms like this.
     
  3. NoSurf
    Joined: Jul 26, 2002
    Posts: 4,472

    NoSurf
    Member

    With this extremely cold weather lately- an old/bad battery would manifest itself.
     
  4. Belchfire8
    Joined: Sep 18, 2005
    Posts: 1,540

    Belchfire8
    Member

    Maybe the fan switch took a dump and is killing the battery with a short...just an idea.
     

  5. 39 All Ford
    Joined: Sep 15, 2008
    Posts: 1,530

    39 All Ford
    Member
    from Benton AR

    It may be as simple as a defective gen or even the "new" regulator.

    In spite of the previous problem with the regulator (or maybe BECAUSE of it), I am prone to think a bad gen or regulator is probably is the issue. The Ford charging circuit on my Lincoln is simple enough that if the right parts are present, not charging is usually going to be an issue with one of the components.

    When my Lincoln stopped charging, a replacement generator made things start working again. (after I changed the regulator without results)

    If nothing else, the ability to swap in replacement parts will allow troubleshooting.
     
  6. thunderbirdesq
    Joined: Feb 15, 2006
    Posts: 7,092

    thunderbirdesq
    Member

    When you say dead, do you mean the battery is dead or the truck just won't start? What's the battery voltage read when it won't start?
     
  7. Shifty Shifterton
    Joined: Oct 1, 2006
    Posts: 4,964

    Shifty Shifterton
    Member

    Is the battery really dead, or is it giving dead symptoms?

    Going along the same lines as Squirrel, If the main power wire for the interior (key, heater, etc) has a sketchy spot, you'll have unexplained bouts of deadness. Another battery with an additional volt might overcome the sketchy spot, or you might jiggle a wire enough swapping batteries. Been there, fought that, have the hand held battery load tester to prove it :) Good luck
     
  8. Old61
    Joined: Sep 20, 2008
    Posts: 268

    Old61
    Member
    from PA

    Dead as in cranks real slow then dies or dead "Click" or dead nothing happens when you turn the key?
    Have you load tested the batteries? Check all connections, battery to engine & battery to frame connections must both be there and clean & tight. Smack the starter with a hammer with the key turned to start or button engaged?
     
  9. Kevin Lee
    Joined: Nov 12, 2001
    Posts: 7,584

    Kevin Lee
    Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    I have not checked voltage when it won't start. Very good point. But when it won't go it will click and give a short growl, spin just a bit, then stop.
     
  10. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 56,085

    squirrel
    Member

    So the battery is just run down, it's not totally dead.

    Put a volt meter in the car so you can see what's happening when you're driving.
     
  11. NVRA #84
    Joined: Aug 24, 2005
    Posts: 361

    NVRA #84
    Member

    I would double check the output of the voltage regulator. If the fans increases speed with the engine RPM, I would think the Regulator is not holding steady. The Alt/Gen puts out voltage according to RPM. The Regulator should accecpt this voltage and regulate it so as not to exceed about 13.5 volts. At low RPM's you get the 12 volts from the battery at higher RPM's the regulator provides 13.5 volts ± a small amount. 15 volts would seem a little high to me. Batteries need 13.2 Volts to recharge, the extra 1.2 volts is to overcome the internal resistance of the battery cells.
     
  12. Shifty Shifterton
    Joined: Oct 1, 2006
    Posts: 4,964

    Shifty Shifterton
    Member

    Where does your charge wire go versus where the dash's voltmeter reads?

    When it lit off with the late model's battery was it like you flipped a switch and it cranked perfectly?
     
  13. thunderbirdesq
    Joined: Feb 15, 2006
    Posts: 7,092

    thunderbirdesq
    Member

    Checking the voltage when it won't start may help you tell whether it's a charging system problem or a starting system problem. Then you'll know which circuit to troubleshoot. Going on a wild guess, I'm going to say it sounds like you may still have a charging system problem. If your heater stopped working on all speeds but the highest, sounds like you have toasted the resistor block and it's only working when it's getting full power bypassing the block. A condition that can be caused by overcharging. Overcharging will also kill batteries and cause starting issues. Just a guess...
     
  14. brewsir
    Joined: Mar 4, 2001
    Posts: 3,278

    brewsir
    Member

    sounds like maybe a couple of problems. Was it fine until the heater switch started acting up? if so start with that circuit...maybe take the regulator out and to the parts store and have them check it out also...hencho in mexico I'm sure (or Pakistan or Taiwan or whatever)
     
  15. AllSteel36
    Joined: Jul 20, 2009
    Posts: 560

    AllSteel36
    Member
    from California

    Two questions/suggetions...

    Charge the battery for a few hours (cables disconnected), let it sit over night (still disconnected) and check battery voltage in the morning and post results.

    When checking voltage at neg terminal, you did disconnect the neg cable from the battery, correct? If so, did you check to engine ground, or from battery to the disconnected cable?
     
  16. Shifty Shifterton
    Joined: Oct 1, 2006
    Posts: 4,964

    Shifty Shifterton
    Member

    On the bright side constant problems are easier to troubleshoot than intermittent ones :) Just remember that as you're working the jumpers at 5:00
     
  17. nutajunka
    Joined: Jan 24, 2007
    Posts: 1,464

    nutajunka

    If something is drawing juice from your battery with the key off, here's a way to check. Take the ground cable off the battery and clamp a trouble light to the ground post, take the other end and attatch it to the cable itself. If it lights up you have a back draw, leave it in that position with the light on and start pulling fuses till the light goes out, that will tell you where your current is going. Some newer radios have a clock that will light your trouble light in this situation, just be aware of that, but I have found many a problem, that others gave up on using this method. Good luck.
     
  18. continentaljohn
    Joined: Jul 24, 2002
    Posts: 5,538

    continentaljohn
    Member

    I would put a Disconnect switch in it. Its good thing to do because of a fire safty ( parking overnight or storage) and you can disconnect once the motor is started. You'll find the gremlin real quick.
     
  19. You swapped batteries and the meter showed 15V with no change up or down when you changed RPM? That should have been a warning that something was wrong. I've never personally seen a full 15V, even with a stuck regulator. If it's a mechanical regulator, pull the cover and see if the points are welded shut. You probably overcharged the old battery and killed it.
     
  20. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,681

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    I am thinking stuck cut out in regulator...look at the points in there. Cutout is the one at "B" terminal.
     
  21. Kevin Lee
    Joined: Nov 12, 2001
    Posts: 7,584

    Kevin Lee
    Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Also, the first battery was new. (to answer Nosurf). And the second has been running my VW for well over a year.

    Seems really really odd that one battery will run the thing for a month, go dead, then a proven battery would be sucked dry in a single trip to work? Or maybe something happened two days ago that just drained them both.
     
  22. Old Fart 1941
    Joined: Jan 28, 2007
    Posts: 58

    Old Fart 1941
    Member
    from Oswego IL

    I would check regulator mounting. If I remenber correctly it is grounded thru the mounting screws. Might be some paint or dirt/grease under it. If that looks ok it might be time to pop for a new battery. Good luck. Old fart 1941
     
  23. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,681

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    Stuck cutout=direct bat gen link. Full blast charging, then battery spends the night draining...
     
  24. Kevin Lee
    Joined: Nov 12, 2001
    Posts: 7,584

    Kevin Lee
    Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sounds logical. So is the regulator fried then or do you think I can pry the points apart and resurface?

    Ultimately I guess I need a new one... and I may just ditch the weak link all together and replace with a voltmeter and toggle switch! Run the damn charging system myself.
     
  25. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,681

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    First just see if those points are open with car off, also check to see if fried if they are open.
    I believe NAPA now sells 2 quality levels of reg...
    They really should be pretty reliable, but crap seems to be taking over everything in parts.
    Consider looking throug your old one if old and of good make and polishing up the points with a burnisher.
     
  26. Voltage regulators are the weak link in older charging systems. If you've ever owned an old Harley, regulators are a sick joke. There really is nothing to replace an OEM regulator. If you can put your hands on an original one, the difference in manufacturing quality is amazing when you compare them side by side.

    You can unstick the welded points and dress them if they're stuck closed.
     
  27. Kevin Lee
    Joined: Nov 12, 2001
    Posts: 7,584

    Kevin Lee
    Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    So, went to lunch and decided to stop at the truck and look at things. No tools so curious I just flipped on the fan and lights. Both are fully functioning full bore. Reach under and wiggle the wire to the starter and it is loose. Not the nut holding it on, but the entire stud is moving around.

    So thinking I might have a bad starter now. Headed out right now with a screwdriver to check out the relay terminals and will report back. If they check out I'm thinking starter.
     
  28. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,681

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    OK...I think that stud is soldered to the winding in there and comes out through a special plastic bushing through the case. Likely the bushing is what is needed.
     
  29. Kevin Lee
    Joined: Nov 12, 2001
    Posts: 7,584

    Kevin Lee
    Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Just got back. Kicked over with slight hesitation. So I guess I could have helped the connection as I was messing with it over lunch.

    Didn't get the regulator cover off to check it out because I brought the wrong tool. (no slots in the bolt heads holding it on) I really have to find the time to put a small tool kit together.
     
  30. carcrazyjohn
    Joined: Apr 16, 2008
    Posts: 4,842

    carcrazyjohn
    Member
    from trevose pa

    15 volts in a battery is way to much.Overcharging ,
     

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