Have you considered useing speedway motors chain set up. Instead of out side the firewall use the chain to move the box to the cowel and under the cowel a second bracket to hold the part of the collum that attaches to the steering wheel. Similar set ups were used on the late 1970's Super modifieds. Give it some thought. Good luck
Sorry.......it's going in a '29 RPU from (GASP) Last Refuge . I'm gonna fit the bellhousing/trans tunnel as tight as possible around the tranny, but I still think the width of the driver's footwell will be minimal - so, I'm trying to gain as much room as possible. Haven't made up my mind on whether I'll be using 2 pedals or 3. C'ya - RAY
and there is not much tapper in those cowls is there? I hate the speedway ones referenced above...but what if you made a smaller chain driven one and came through the cowl with it...youd get your drop on the inside. there was a thread a few days ago where a guy made his own for the firewall, but if you constructed it right, you could have alot of strength in it and not take up much room. Im reaching for you!!!
I used a Mopar box in my '31 A sedan, the extension is short as Chris Casney said. I bet that Last Ref. cowl is small. If the Box is mounted and supported very well you don't need to worry about a support bearing.
Here is a very unique idea that is being built by my friend Dave (Donut Dave on the HAMB) for his A Roadster pickup. Its a Volkswagon bug steering box (that can be bought rebuilt for a little over $120) mounted high with linkage to a lower cowl mounted pitman arm. I think it looks great and another interesting way of doing it! <table style="width:auto;"><tr><td></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From 2009 LA Roadster Show Trip</td></tr></table> <table style="width:auto;"><tr><td></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From 2009 LA Roadster Show Trip</td></tr></table> <table style="width:auto;"><tr><td></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From 2009 LA Roadster Show Trip</td></tr></table>
Very neat looking install - any concerns about the strength of the VW box though? I have thought about using one, but had a number of people talking about whether one should be using something designed to turn a relatively light car with no engine weight on the front. Barry
I don't think the weight difference between the two is great enough to warrant any concern. In compaison, the Vega and especially the Corvair boxes would be overstressed when being used in the same type of car.
AFAIK, the Last Refuge '29A cowl is exactly the same size as Henry's original. Wow.....I think "unique idea" is an understatement. There's certainly no shortage of innovation and xlnt fab skills there, lol.....kudos to Dave!! My take, however, is that there's also no shortage of monkey motion goin' on under that cowl. Way TOO much, IMHO (no offense intended). Also, I tend to question the strength of what appears to be a single-thickness sheetmetal brace supporting his bearing-mounted 3-piece "bellcrank". With forces being exerted from opposite sides in two different directions (approx. 90° from each other), I think it'll continually "warp" during use, fatigue and ultimately fail without some kind of additional bracing. I'm gonna try and keep mine as simple, strong and trouble free as possible. I'm thinking of using a single square or rectangular "pedestal" that rises vertically from the frame adjacent to the firewall. Zipper uses this type of mount on his frames, but mounts the box on the outside of the f/wall. Check out the two upper pics showing the pedestal with and without a (reversed Corvair) gearbox, near the bottom of this page: http://www.zippermotors.com/page.php?id=24 . On the "low-boy" Last Refuge body, which is what I have, the built-in frame pockets along the floor are located slightly inboard, pretty-much centered on the footwells - so the pedestal could be welded solidly to the frame, between the two foot/leg "pockets" that are on either side. The flat mounting plate on top of the pedestal will extend to the left, past the gearbox and all the way over to the cowl, where I'll mount a pillow block to support the extended pitman shaft. I also plan on suspending my swinging pedal(s) off this pedestal and the front of it will incorporate a plate to stiffen the firewall where the master cylinder attaches on the other side. Of course, I'm talkin' outta my ass here, cuz it's all just "imagineering" (fantasy) until I actually do it and discover any pitfalls (it's funny how things always seem to work a lot better in our minds than when we actually try to implement 'em, isn't it, lol?) C'ya - RAY
In Dave's defense, this is a work in progress. Everything is tack welded so far and I can't remember how thick that plate is, it might be 1/4". That should be stout enough, but adding some horizontal gussets over the entire length wouldn't hurt. The linkage idea is necessary if you want the box high enough to have room for your feet and pedals, especially in a Model A cowl, or else you'll end up with a pitman arm that is way too long, looks out of proportion, and makes the steering too quick. The Zipper idea is fine, but it isn't the traditional inside the cowl mounted box and pitman arm look. That's why I love Hot Rods, there's a thousand different ways to do everything!
Here's the cowl steering on my 10 year old Zipper with a banger. Check out the mounting brackets. Sorry I didn't have it polished as it's out there for everybody to see.
Dave's workmanship and ingenuity certainly don't need any defense - it's superb. But from an engineering standpoint, I feel it needs a slight re-think. Even if the plate were 1/4-inch, I don't think it's stiff enough to offset the incredible load that'll be exerted on such a short "axle" passing thru what appears to be a single bearing. As an example, picture a two-foot shaft passing thru that single plate-mounted bearing with only the end engaged. Now, pull on the other end of that shaft with some gusto............the plate's gonna warp/bend. I submit that the force applied by that imaginary 2' shaft is small compared to the opposing forces that will be exerted by the two "levers" attached to opposite ends of that 1 to 2-inch "axle". Disclaimer: I was wrong once before! As for the Zipper "pedestal mount" I referenced, the one I'm proposing will be against and INSIDE the firewall, and will be in between the existing foot/leg pockets that are on either side of the L/H frame rail. So, if it works out as I envision it, there should be very little intrusion on foot/leg room. Concerning the argument of having to lengthen the pitman arm excessively and winding up with an ill-proportioned "look" or steering that's "too quick"......keep in mind that there's also the option of raising and/or lengthening the steering arm on the spindle. With regard to bump-steer, however, raising it would be worse than lengthening it - since that would cause greater steering deflection for any given amount of suspension travel (a 4-link with a same-length and parallel drag link would be ideal - but, I happen to prefer split bones). Ultimately, however, my RPU is gonna sit REALLY low - which will effectively lower the end of the pitman arm in relation to the ground - even tho the spindle arm will still be "X"-inches from the tarmac, based on the tire diameter. So I don't anticipate having to use an excessively-long pitman arm to keep the drag link parallel with the bones, even with the steering box mounted high enough above the floor to provide ample foot room. C'ya - RAY
Just a thought- although i havent got my head around why you reverse in the first place-me dumb...................but could you use a RHD steering box so that you dont have to reverse the input? We had f series trucks also.
I think that is a VW Bus steering box, since it attaches with 4 bolts. They were commonly used before Vega boxes became available. Less bulky than the early Mustang boxes.
Wow.......that's beautiful - I always admire clean, meticulous workmanship!! (I wish I had a Bridgeport in my garage, lol) I presume there wasn't enough room to use Zipper's pedestal mount/Corvair box combo, due to the starter placement on the banger? Is there some kinda frame-mounted structure to which the outboard mounting bracket bolts, or is it just attached to the firewall? BTW, my pockets aren't nearly deep enough to afford a Schroeder et al sprint/midget gearbox, but it sure looks nice. C'ya - RAY
Wow.......that's beautiful - I always admire clean, meticulous workmanship!! (I wish I had a Bridgeport in my garage, lol) I presume there wasn't enough room to use Zipper's pedestal mount/Corvair box combo, due to the starter placement on the banger? Is there some kinda frame-mounted structure to which the outboard mounting bracket bolts, or is it just attached to the firewall? The outboard bracket is bolted to the frame and firewall. There is a lot of steel reinforcement pieces on the firewall and the inboard bracket utilizes that feature.
Here's mine on my 28 RPU. It's a modified Nields P/S box. I've hooked up a pump since these pics were shot. It works well although I'm still chasing a death wobble problem. I think the recirculating ball assembly is worn. I've spoken Sweet power steering and he said he can rebuild the box for me with a new recirculating ball assembly included. Hopefully that will cure the wobble. The pittman arm is long but is still not too quick (1 1/4 turns lock to lock). Tony
Surprised to see my work on the HAMB, being just a “Back-yard Barney” from the high county…. To clarify what I used in the steering support. The plate is made from ¼” material, final welding is now complete. The bearing support is made from 2” dia. tubing .250 wall, 1-1/2” long, with a full surface bronze oil-lite bushing. The shaft is 1-1/4” CR. I used .188 wall rectangles tubing for the uprights, which are bolted through the floor directly into the frame body tab. On the passenger side there is a similar support, tying the supports together are two cross members creating the structural box configuration. /><O></O>
"Death wobble", as you put it, is not usually caused by loose components such as a worn steering box (altho that WILL exacerbate it). It's usually caused by not having enough positive caster &/or an improper toe adjustment. Play or looseness in the gearbox usually only causes vague/sloppy steering and "wandering" - similar to what you'd get with loose/worn tie-rod or drag-link ends. BTW, your installation looks great, Tony.....but, 1-1/4 turns lock-to-lock is not too quick??? WOW! I'm sorta new to the street-rod scene - so please tell me where you sourced that L/F spindle with both tie-rod and drag link arms. Is there any interference between the drag link and tie-rod arm during a hard left turn? C'ya - RAY
Thanks I'll try more toe. It's at 1/8" in. now. The caster is around 7 pos. We fix death wobbles all the time at the shop on 4x4's and straight axle Jeeps. The normal fix is things like new track rod bushings, drag link and tie rod ends and gear box adjustments. None of that has worked here. I've also trued and spun-balanced the wheels on the car. With the power assist, the quick steering is cool. The car drives and steers bitchen, it just gets set off at low speeds when crossing RR tracks or something like that. The steering arms are cut from the bottom of the spindles and tig welded to the top (I can hear the flamers allready). The second arm on the left is the same story. I just tried to make them look like they grew there. No they don't collide. Tony
I was looking at the photo of the inside of the Pinkee coupe and that setup is going to be rough on cool weather driving unless you like a frosted left knee. Nice scoop and vent for hot weather though. Styling is to each his own, as each of us has different ideas on what looks right. There are plenty of bearings available at fairly reasonable costs to support the end of a longer extension. A guy might want to check bearing sizes before machining the extension shaft/tube though as you still have to fit the bearing to the extension's od. <input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
Here is how I did my track T, I used a Mopar box and extended a tube with NO support bearing, the extension is still shorter that the original pitman arm that came with the box. The pitman arm is the end of a rear '36 Ford wishbone:
Dave, hope you didn't mind me posting your "Back-yard Barney" work here. I thought it was a brilliant idea and your workmanship and engineering are the best. Anyway if you want to give me hell for sharing your secrets I'll be over to Prescott by tomorrow, since I'm in Vegas right now. I'll stop by if you'll let me in with my camera again!
Another gorgeous job of fabrication by a fellow HAMBer - nice work Drive Em!! Can I make just one small suggestion, tho? I really think you should consider a wrap-around gusset on the "down arm" (for lack of better terminology) of your fabbed pitman arm. I hate to even mention it, cuz everything looks so nice......but, I would feel terrible if I didn't and you got injured (or worse) due to its failure. That down arm is gonna create a huge amount of stress on the wall of the horzontal tube that extends your pitman/sector shaft. I've seen two failures of that exact type in one of my own previous cars - a '65 Nova V-8. Fortunately, however, it was the clutch jackshaft, rather than a steering component, and didn't result in a life-threatening incident. It used virtually the same type of construction, but had TWO arms that were attached, one on each end, extending in opposite directions to each other. And, like your arm, they were both welded to the wall of a tube. That tube spanned between a ball pivot on the engine block and another ball-pivot attached to the frame. It was a factory piece and in both instances, the arm eventually tore away the wall of the tube onto which it was welded. I finally decided to end the frustration and had a gusset welded to each arm........voila - no more failures. The gusset essentially looked like a huge thick washer with the center hole being the same diameter as the O.D. of the tube - but with a big "chunk" missing on one side of its perimeter. It was then slid over the tube so that the edges next to the missing "chunk" lined up with the sides of the arm. When welded in place, it provided infinitely more strength to the jackshaft and prevented any further failures. Just my 2¢. C'ya - RAY
1/8" positive toe is probably just about right for a RWD vehicle (FWD vehicles require negative toe to counteract the automatic toe-in that results from being under power). If you're gonna try a change, I would personally try going to "0" and see if it makes any difference. I see you've got some fairly thick spacers between your rotors and wheels. I ASSume they're being used to change the bolt pattern (?), since it doesn't look like you needed any more space to clear the back of the wires. Those can also exacerbate "death wobble". Your caster is probably fine, altho a little more wouldn't hurt (more stability, but higher steering effort). If all else fails and you don't feel like modifying your split bones for a little more caster or tossing the wheel spacers in favor of redrilling your rotors/hubs for the correct bolt pattern - you might end up having to install one of them-thar hydraulic steering dampeners you put on your customers' 4x4s all the time. C'ya - RAY
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