Ford O Matic Valve body change

Somewhere I read that the valve body from a later model Ford O Matic could be put into an early Ford O to get 1st 2nd and 3rd shifting like a modern car. I have a '51 with Ford O and starting out in 2nd gear is a pain in the keyster. I pull it down to "getaway" gear all the time. It sure would be nice to find out if this valve body swap would work. For now I'd like to maintain the originality of the car from a looks and dollars and cents point of view. I'm not ready to invest the time and money to change the drive train over..
Also does anyone know of any Hi perf mods for a Flat O? Is there a mod for the Torque converter to make it higher stall? Can these things be hopped up?
I know some/most of you will want to say junk it and put in a c-4 but for now I really get a kick out of keeping the car period correct! So please keep this on topic.. and if you can help me with some words of wisdom please do.
Thanks!

 

I have the same trans in my Edsel. On advice from other hambers I played with the kickdown linkage to get the trans to hold first longer. That does work pretty well, though it's no miracle cure. Worth a shot though since it's free.

No idea on the valve body though, have to leave that to wiser heads.

 

Corsair, I don't have 1st gear.. by the time Edsel came along in '57? the '51 Ford O Matic had evolved to have 1st gear in drive.. in drive my car starts in 2nd.. to get it to 1st it has to be manually pulled down into low (or getaway gear) as it is sometimes called. Then it has to be held down in first and shifted into drive where it then goes to 2nd and then 3rd.. This is why I was wondering if a later valve body would allow the car to start in 1st gear from drive.. like perhaps a valve body from the Ford O Matic in your Edsel.

 

Okay, good thread here. I too need help with a Fordomatic.

Not meaning to hijack this post, but..

The trans in my slEdsel acted like it was "binding" when trying to put it into gear. Literally I had to really pull to get the ol' girl into gear.

Then it happened. It let go and I have no way of getting it into gear. The linkage seems okay and the trans was rebuilt by a pretty damned reliable guy in Denver.

So I believe something happened in the valve body area of the trans.

Should I just yank the valve body and take it to a trans shoppe or pull the whole damned tranny?

What do you folks think?

 

Tha's way off base Spooky.. don't get me lost here, I'm trying to find out about mods to a first year Ford O Matic. Maybe ya oughta start another thread.

 

The later model Furdo's allow a 1st gear start, but you have to floor it. In essence you won't have "normal" 3 speed automatic.

Back in the day though, BW did install a one way sprag to allow a full 3 speed auto while in Dr. This is probably what you might be thinking.

 

check out the noob bustin a long timers nuts...

 

Not sure if that would help you. Even on my transmission, "normal" drive is D2, which starts the car in second. I do have a D1 position, which starts you off in first. That sounds great, but it still upshifts very quickly to 2nd it practically never drops from second to first without a full stop. For anything else, you have to use the "L" position to manually grab first.

Hopefully that made sense. As far as I know, all the early 3 speeds had 2nd gear starting until the C6 came along. Maybe you could adapt something from there? Honestly if you want it to behave like a C6 though, you may want to just use the whole dang thing. It looks alot like the dual power auto. Once in the car I really doubt anyone could tell the difference without checking casting numbers.

 

I posted this on Corsair's thread too on harsh reverse engagement, its a '58 Ford shop manual as part of the Old car manual project. This is the transmission section, maybe you will find what you need. You will have to page through the thumbnails.

http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/...vice/04/FordOMaticandCruiseOMaticT/index.html

 

I think a valve body from a FMX can be installed but the case will need to be drilled and tapped for a modulator valve

 

Shoulda said it with a smiley.. I might be new on this board but I sure ain't no noob..

48 and white haired I sometimes wish I was a noob.

 

It's been some years since I have done this, but perhaps I can shed some light. Junkyard Jeff is on the right track, and there's a few other things as well.

The transmission has to have the one way clutch (sprag) in the center of the rotating assembly, to allow 1st gear takeoff under normal conditions; if so, you then modify the detent on the internal shift lever or use the FMX piece, & drill & tap the case for the modulator (connected to manifold vacuum); then install the FMX valve body. Take a look at the FMX to find the correct location for the hole. You can use the sprag from a Ford-O-Matic, Cruise-O-Matic, or FMX; for that matter all the internal parts from a FMX will bolt into the Ford-O-Matic or Cruise-O-Matic. The FMX is a linear descendant of the Ford-O-Matic, as is the Cruise-O-Matic. The shift indicator may need to be changed, and you often find that a stock shifter may not have enough travel; you can either modify the slot or use a different shifter. You generally find that the FMX valve body blocks the passages to the rear pump; you can take the outer gear of the pump off (the pump isn't used now anyway) and leave the inner gear in as a spacer.

All this applies to the Merc-o-Matic as well, but the two bigger Lincoln cases (HX & LX) have some different internals...dunno what if anything would be different about the procedure.

If you are willing to use a slightly different approach, you can redrill the top two holes in a FMX case and bolt it onto the Ford-O-Matic bellhousing. This solves all the internal parts issues, but it's not quite that simple, as the converter & front pumps are different.

You can A) use the Ford-O-Matic converter & front pump in the FMX case, which is the easiest way to go; however, early Ford-Os have a weird tang drive system for the converter/pump which has been known to break off.

B) You can use the FMX converter and pump, but then you'll need to machine a bushing to index the smaller FMX converter pilot with the larger hole in the Y block crank.

C) You can get a transmission guy to build a custom converter with the larger pilot & the later pump drive; basically a Ford-O front shell with a FMX rear shell (oversimplified). This will use the FMX front pump in the FMX.

In the event the FMX is used, it may be easiest to use the Ford-o-Matic tailshaft housing & tailshaft, so that the original mount & driveshaft can stay the same.

So far as mods go....virtually all the mods would involve first converting it to a Cruise-o-Matic or FMX style trans, I would guess. Trans-Go still offers a shift kit for the FMX. Another source would be Jay at Broader Performance http://www.broaderperformance.com/ who has developed some improvements for the Cruise-O-Matic; he could also build a custom converter. Jim Paquet at JPT Transmissions has worked with them also .

All this is from memory and an old thread from years ago, so it's quite possible I've forgotten something.

One more thing...d2 willys posted some time back about the true two speed, one-piece case Ford-O-Matic. I have not yet run across one in person, so I have no clue as to whether they are different internally; all my experience has been with the separate bell/case/tailshaft housing. Be interesting to find out, as I believe he said that they have an aluminum case...the Ford-O, Cruise-O, & FMX are cast iron....heavy...though some later bells are aluminum, at least.

 

um... nope... no smiley. eyeroll perhaps, but not a smiley

dont matter if you helped Henry Ford put the first hubcaps on model T's, you ARE a noob HERE... welcome to the new HAMB

 

My guess is some type of internal issue with the detent and/or valve...have you pulled the pan? If you disconnect the external linkage, can you move the shift lever on the case?

 

Homespun91: Two things about what you mentioned:

1) I believe the Fordomatics did not have the one way sprags. They used the LO band to provide 1st. Even if you floored it in Dr, the LO band was used for 1st gear. Some BW transmissions had a one way sprag for 1st, even though still only single range transmissions (PRNDL).

2) The true two speed Fordomatics (all aluminum one piece case, integral bellhousing) are completely different then the older Fordomatics. You had only LO and Dr ranges and had only one automatic shift, LO to DR.

 

Since this is an old thread and I have the same questions regarding these Fordomatic, has anybody recently looked into this. BTW 1958-60 didn't use the vacuum modulator valve and a transmission of this vintage is most likely a closer match for being a donor of parts for modifications?
If only the planetary gear set with the extra sprag is used why does the rear pump have to be disabled? If the early version (58-60)of the Cruisomatic is used, wouldn't this slightly newer version have provisions for the 56/57 model?

 

The 56/57 Ford-o-matics/Merc-o-matics/Lincoln Turbo Drive carried a rear pump, but no planetary with sprag. Making the 56-57 versions start in 1st, by putting the Cruise-o-matic planetary/sprag, could possibly be done, but the rear pump may not fit, or it does something to valving action. The Fordo's TV rod will adjust so that the transmission will start in 1st, but then the shift points are way out there (1st @ 60, 2nd around 100mph), so that is not what most would want. I would think there may be a reasonable way of modifying the valve body to accomplish the 1st gear start with shifts @ 40, 65. I might just look into this and see if there is an elegant way of doing this. Might not be so simple for pre-56 transmissions.

 

From what I read there is very little difference from the early 51 to 56 other than the light and medium case models. My Mark being a 56 is the medium and this was the largest until 58.
As for the rear pump, this is a mystery in itself because there would be provisions required for that sprag and of course by rights it wouldn't necessarily have to be very big?
This assumption is by what my Borg Warner 3 speed OD manual transmission in my 1950 Mercury Sport Sedan uses for a sprag. The main output shaft with a drum the ring gear is splined onto has the freewheeling sprag for when the overdrive shifts into direct. With your foot off the gas, and when the governor shuts the solenoid off, the engine dies down to an idle and the car coasts unless you accelerate and then the shaft turns as fast or faster than the output causing the sprag to grab.
I have heard others mention the Cruiso from even mid 60's could be push started and given this, must of had a rear oil pump?
Time to look in parts books for 1958-60 because they can't be much different??
I will contact a Ford Mechanic I know who used to run our Ford Garage when we used to have one.
Broader Performance got back to me and mentioned they don't do much with them anymore and were of no help.

 

I was told this could be done but opted for a 62 medium case CruiseOmatic with the vacuum modular and the rod that was once the pressure is now a down shift only. A lot easier but probably not behind the 51.

 

Now if you look at BillBallingerSr's link and if you look at it closely you will notice 1958 also has a rear pump. I remember hearing about the Cruiso from 60's also having them but logically let's focus on 1958-60! Why would you want to complicate an already unknown procedure by adding a vacuum modulator valve?? Also being only a year newer at the earliest of this 58-60 flavor we won't have any radical changes other than an addition of an extra sprag and a modded control valve. As for the sprag they are SMALL. Provisions can easily be made by machining the bore they fit into, in other components.
Look at the history of these Borg and Borg derivatives and if you read carefully you will notice Studebaker was originally involved here and a few years later Ford produced a version that was similar but reduced in cost.
Why would you radically change the components between 56/57 when all you need is to update the valve and add a sprag??
It's called cost saving measures and notice Stude started getting the lower cost from Ford later as a cost cutting measure.

Years ago when I had my 56 Mark II MX series transmission rebuilt, due to piss poor maintenance and bands not being adjusted, my bands needed replacement due to slippage damage. I was informed that the bands and MANY parts were the same as newer models so parts were not difficult to find.
Some scoff at the possibility of the late 60's FMX like what I had in my 69 LTD behind a 390 being similar. Why not?? If it does the same job except with PRND21, and is behind a 390 putting out less than my 368, why would you spend major coin coming up with something else to do the same job??
Time for me to contact the former owner of our local once was Ford dealership which isn't in business anymore. He is almost 70 and knew them well including his late brother who originally got this dealership started in 1959. These are the people we got to locate for information.

Putting 60's transmissions in just opens up a can of worms. Linkages on carburetor are now wrong. Original transmission linkages are now wrong and of course those with the PRNDL are also faced with indicator problems and the possibility of losing low for hill control if your indicator prevents an extra 6th position from being used. The easiest by far is being able to mod a valve giving 123 shifts in D with Low capabilities. That stupid Cruiso gave this except it had that extra position starting in 2nd many of us refused to use!!

Yes before I forget there is also a governor in these transmissions as well. This controls the shift when the throttle stays at the same position such as accelerating while going down a hill.

 

Transgo website has shiftkits for old cruisos, and also files how to identify them.
I think if modify 2-1 shift valve spring, maybe even take it out, it might start first.
I might try this trick next summer in my 57 transmission..

 

Lengthening the lever arm on the column about 1” and shortening the arm in the shifter and you will get this..

 

Unfortunately it isn't quite this easy. That additional sprag and newer gearset will be required but perhaps a different valve or modified valve will be required. Lets also not overlook the governor! It is a centrifugal valve where a weight moves a spool valve to different speeds as it spins faster. After all if you were traveling down a hill and picking up speed, you would want the transmission to shift up faster even though your throttle is kept in the same position or backed off. In this case the throttle linkage wouldn't be a factor in how fast it shifts unless you had the accelerator to the floor while going downhill.

I guess the best way is find a couple of transmissions from wrecked cars. One from 1957 and older and one from 1958-60.
I know of a wrecked 59 Mercury Marauder with a 383 two barrel and it most likely has a Cruise MX medium case. Meanwhile an older MX can be located and disassembling both would be a great way to see the differences. Unlike the stupid belief where many think you need an older mechanic to work on these, in reality these transmissions are extremely simple compared to newer 1980's and newer with 4 speeds and up!! They are simple and crude and a mechanic starting in the trade would be best to start out with these instead of newer to learn.
Ever take apart a newer 4 speed from the 80's and up? The control valve is extremely complicated!
I had to rebuild my Aerostar transmission and I literally used a muffin pan with numerous ompartments including taking many pictures. These older transmissions use a fraction of valves and a good shop manual, a nice clean bench, following the manual VERY CAREFULLY from start to finish, and repairing them is very doable.
The torque convertor can even be disassembled for repair as well.

Sent from my SM-N986W using The H.A.M.B. mobile app

 

In theory.that sprag isnt absolut necessity.
It has three speeds.its just using band instead of a sprag for first gear.
With band its just bit firmer downshift due to no freewheeling.
At the end, if this mod would be easy, it would be done hundreds of times.

 

Pontmerc it most certainly isn't this simple! It never was and never will be.
I just got off the phone with Larry Passey from Transgo and BTW he said he has kids 5 years older than myself and I'm going on 60!!
He said that extra sprag is NECESSARY. It boiled down to because there was much more required that they never really got into conversions and I guess its called a forensic study of getting a 58 to 60 core along with a 57 and older and totally disassembling, and then seeing if the extra sprag gearset will fit and then what valving is required. Also for obvious reasons the governor would have to be updated because it would be controlling 3 shifts instead of two.
NO I don't want a 61 or newer!!! My shift control valve will nolonger be usable and a carburetor with the newer downshift mechanism will be required. I don't need or want a vacuum modulator when a slightly newer without will work and accommodate my linkages!
Worst case scenario is losing my L position and having D1 and D2.

 

Knowing that 56 and up Fordomatics (not the true 2 speed types) can start in 1st when flooring the gas pedal from a start means that the low band gets applied and the 2nd gear band gets released. This is probably done by very high TV pressure in relation to governor. Normally the TV pressure at idle and moderate acceleration is low enough to keep the low band released and 2nd gear applied. So, if this is how these transmissions behave, then it would seem that with knowledge of the valve body circuitry, that it might be possible to modify the valve body to start in Low.

Comparing a 58-60 Cruiso with the 56 up Fordo valve body and governor hydraulic flow when in D, D1, and Low may help in knowing if there is a simple mod that can be done.

 

hennmann. My column and trans and carb linkage for the 1962 Cruise-o is stock for the 56 Ford-o. The only part change was for the extra travel for the 6 instead of 5 positions on the indicator in the car. I did that by making an extension that bolted to the column arm.
The original throttle pressure link is now the kick down only and I have it set at the end of the arm on the trans so it does not down shift too early. Some say you don’t need it at all. The up shifting is now controlled by the vacuum modulator and Governor I assume. When using more foot feed it will stay in low or second longer with stiffer shifting leaving a signal. With light foot feed it shifts normal like a 3 speed auto does.
I can only tell you it was a great addition to my 56. I changed complete rear ends a month after the trans. It now has 2.74 rear gears replacing the 3.21’s. I run 70 on the freeway at 2200 rpm.

 

I have the original FordOmatic transmission out of my old '64 Falcon. Has been out for many years when a toploader conversion was done. If anyone can use this trans please PM me. It is cheap, really cheap.

 

Okay because I'm not the only one interested in this topic and forum members are good enough to provide valuable information
I was referred to one transmission shop in my nearest city by other transmission shops telling me go see Murray and I was greeted by a fellow older than my 60 years. He claimed the cases are the same from 1956 up into the late 50's and to his knowledge he said many Cruise O only had one sprag and not an extra and the valve body can be changed. Of course not mentioned by Murray is the detent cam will need changing as well. After this I decided to look on ePay and contacted one seller parting out and selling parts going by the seller vegassparky66-6 and this is my answer from him when I enquired whether or not the cases are the same and what is required to convert and this was his reply:

"Ok so in 1958 Thunder Bird had an option for a 3 speed auto that was made by borgWarner and was the first trans ford called by the name cruiseomatic. This was the same case as the 2 speed autos of prior years. Starting in 1959 tooling for the automatics swapped over to Ford from borgwarner. All the measurments for the case remained the same. Ford did however as a one way clutch (the sprag) to the planet gear carrier to reduce harmonics in first gear.

I would use a 1959 to 62 non vacuum modulated valve body and a planet gear carrier and center support that uses a sprag clutch in order to fit your needs. Keep in mind the valve body is going to be a green dot type so one position will operate as yours currently does and another will be full three speed.

I should have the parts for sale. If you can't find them, I can have then listed in short order."

jimmy six? What happened to your travel of the indicator needle? Are the detent notches finer and closer together or are they the same distance but an extra detent position? In my case I don't have the option to swap out my indicator and my guess is I will have D1 and D2 and lose my L or hill control??
I want to only use 1958 vintage and do not want a vacuum modulator valve body because my 1956 air cooled does not have provisions for a modulator valve on the case. Besides the extra linkage from the throttle to the pressure regulator valve does the job I need anyway.
I do not want to do any radical mods to this 56 Mark II with only 55,000 miles but have it so I can put it back to total stock if desired.
A valve body and if need be swapping in a planetary gearset with an additional sprag is discrete and perhaps if the original valve body and detent cam is put back in the updated planetary gearset can be left in.
Due to the pinging problem due to this 368 demanding 98+ octane I have to use Premium 92 with octane boost and timing knocked way back. I am going to try sparkplugs of several heat ranges colder as well to attempt to see if this helps and starting out in second in this situation is plain and simply stupid!!!!

 

The total travel on the column indicator stayed the same. The 1” extension gave the lower trans arm the necessary “extra” travel for the 6 detects. If you look at my dash indicator there a 2 drives. I choose this from the trans shop doing the work. I could have had P-R-N-D1-D2-L but choose the white dot and green dot. So I could start in 2nd gear if I wanted. The D slot on the column was wide enough for this.
The “P” is a problem for holding it in Park. You may know Ford had a problem with this stock in the 50’s-60’s-70’s and I had to remove my steering wheel and turn signal apparatus to file squarer corners on the column stops. The rounding comes from use.