If you were just going to build one frame (for the time being) how would you do it? Would you take the time to build a table that will probably be of little use to you for the forseeable future, or would you find a way to wing it witout one? How? I've seen Neal's post about how he straightened his frame with some jack stands but I was wondering how you would go about building one from scratch. Thanks in advance...
A reasonably flat concrete floor will do. Use a level,shim to level with the earth. Skip your tack welds,to minimise warpage. Measure all the time,if it's out of square,pull it in line with a come-along. Finish weld,alternating sides. You can usally keep tolerences to within 1/8-3/16ths of an inch,won't make that much diff. good luck, Sparky
I built a 32 frame with just a set of saw horses, but it was a constant battle to keep checking them for level everytime you a moved part of the frame around. when it was all said and done I was only a 16th off of the original frame I was using for measurements. To which I felt was acceptable. If you do this start early and keep focused it only takes one bump of the horses to screw it all up.
Phil, have you considered usin a laser level? If you use the type that defines a line rather than a dot you can describe a plane in space and measure from there. Then it wouldn't matter if you were working from a flat floor or a dirt one. Wayno
Depending on how squared away your shop/garage is - meaning you have room for a workbench - build a narrow frame table and use it for a workbench after the frame's done. All that would be required there would be to put a top on it and set it up for up doors or shelves. Width is not a worry. The local speed shop loaned me their funny car frame table. It was about 2' wide and 12' long, 6" I-Beams and leveling screws on all 6 legs. I tried to buy it after the 31's frame was done, but they wanted it back. (Wuz a good deal for both of us, he got his frame table out of the rain and I got to use a flat surface to build on.) Granted, a typical hot rod frame (32 rails) is wider than 24", but that was taken care of by 2 x 2" square tubing transverse pieces shimmed to fit the swoopy Deuce frame. The transverse pieces were clamped to the frame table. (Part of the deal was I didn't drill or weld directly to the frame table.) If . . . a guy had a big shop, the frame table would make a heck of a welding bench out in the middle of the floor. Just drop a piece of 3/16 - 1/4" over it for a top and you'd be in business....
Well, you'll be either attaching legs to the frame or building something fairly table-like to get it up to a working height. A couple of simple but brilliant tips cribbed from some circle-track publication: When you first level your device, mark and number the spot where each leg or stand sits on the floor and mark each leg with a number corresponding to its little square on the floor. Level with your improvised leveling screws or shims, and if you use shims keep each stack of shims with its leg permanently. Now when you bump the thing and move it or have to take it down to work on a disaster to your driver you can reestablish levelness from a good starting point. As soon as the frame takes its form, permanently mark the carefully measured centerline of each crossmember and add further marks on the frame rails if any area lacks a well-located hole that you can use for your diagonal measurements. These marks will not only speed all frame measuring, they will help later as you install other components and perhaps with future repairs.
I have done several on stands in the past its a matter of keeping it in spec each operation though. On this'30 A roadster I just put together-IF you saw the posts on it -I used my old [one post] Wayne Hoist in my shop. I took two peices of 1/4" thickWALL 4"by 4" square tubing 5FT LONG and shimmed it in a few spots till they were level across the beams of that hoist SURFACE. THEN when they were both level with each other and square to the world I C clamped em to the hoist then re checked the alignment. Next I set the rails up on the two beams and clamped the front and rear crossmembers in place and checked the widths and checked for square by triangulating the measurements both direction.I then tacked the frame rails to the"fixture" I made and then re checked as I welded the actual frame welds for any movement. I was also "stepping" my frame front and rear, so it was a handy thing to be able to use the beams as a point of beginning/for comparison- to achieve equal amounts of "step" in all 4 corners. I left it welded to the beams till all X members and boxing plates were welded in also......
I'm not sure My reply has merit in a thread with replys from c9 and BL and choprods, but here goes. 1.5 car garage slab. I estblished horizontal level with shims. Then snapped a chalk line for centers. Checked length. ADJUST. Check diagonals. ADJUST. Check length and diagonals. Tack. Check. Weld. Check. Weld. Grind. Weld. And this is where I'm at. Barabaric/rookie but hopefully it helps. I was told that a .125 tolerance is acceptable. I was closer to .063. This is the only method the guys I know use. I'm young I get down on the floor, then flip it when I need the other side. Ryan
of course you can, it's just a lot slower and more tedius work slowly and methodicaly, check and recheck, and it'll work fine. here's a couple pics of some of my stuff coming together, 1
I have an old truck frame I'm thinking of using as a frame table. I know its not square, but once I put it somewhere, its not going to move if bumped, and I can weld things to it when needed. Not speaking from experience, since I've not done it yet...
Before I had a 3/4" thick steel table, I used 4 jack stands and filled some drums with water on top of the corners. Pretty heavy,tacked and checked, it did not move. Make sure you tack the center crossmember in as well, it seems to help minimize movement while welding.
[ QUOTE ] I have an old truck frame I'm thinking of using as a frame table. I know its not square, but once I put it somewhere, its not going to move if bumped, and I can weld things to it when needed. Not speaking from experience, since I've not done it yet... [/ QUOTE ] . That is exactly what Dale (2ratical) used to build this deuce frame. There is a big difference between building a frame out of box tubing and building a frame from loosy-goosy stamped rails. He used the rear section of 1 1/2 ton truck frame to tack weld uprights to lock the rails where they were wanted. It doesn't have to be fancy. It just needs to be effective. I built a few box tubing frames on the garage floor but I built a frame jig to hold the Deuce factory rails for a highboy project about 25 years ago.
This is all I have ever used. I used to have a much beefier set but I got these homemades screwjacks at a yard sale for $20. It makes leveling the frame really easy. Not saying a table wouldn't be better tho. I had set the frame onto axles for pictures here but you can see the stands. I am only using it for body fitment now and will have it on a solid base before actual frame work.
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I have an old truck frame I'm thinking of using as a frame table. I know its not square, but once I put it somewhere, its not going to move if bumped, and I can weld things to it when needed. Not speaking from experience, since I've not done it yet... [/ QUOTE ] That is exactly what Dale (2ratical) used to build this deuce frame. [/ QUOTE ] Perfect. I have a '51 Chev 1-1/2 ton I'm thinking I'll part out. The rear 14 to 16 foot of frame are mostly flat on top and parallel. It may not be straight, but I expect it will be stable.
Thanks guys, Elmo, I'm not 100% sure I understand what your doing with the level? Can you splain that a little more? And 60, thanks... I figured it could be done. But did you really use a MIG to actually weld something?!!! I thought that was a sin on the HAMB.
I also used the old saw horse trick, and the blueprints from Wescotts catalog. A cheap magnetic angle finder is also helpful. The car is on the road after 2 1/2 years and seems to track just fine; doors line up; so far, so good. pigpen Measure THREE times, cut once, tack, measure FOUR times, cut once, tack........
Kilroy, At http://img57.photobucket.com/albums/v174/Threebytheknee/ are some photos of my project. I did the home built frame on steel saw horses. Used scrap pipe for legs, 1" x 2" tube for the horizontal member, 1/4" x 1" strap braces, 1/2" bolts for leveling screws. As another HAMBer mentioned, I too used felt pen marks on the concrete shop floor to reference the leg locations. This marking is done after the two saw horses are squared with each other perfectly with cross measuring. The horses don't need to be level with each other, just level each horse. Once they are squared you can mark a center line on each horse and set your frame width. Watching that the horses don't move, correct them when they do, you can build a very accurate frame. Just takes time. Mistakes I made along the way: Be sure to work over the 32 rails (if that's what you are using) with a hammer and square. When new (Speedway supplied in my case) the top and bottom are not NEARLY square with the sides. I had to do a lot of BFH work along the way. Should have done the straightening first. Use the stock punched holes in the 32 rails to square things up with cross measuring. As soon as you get the rails square, tack weld some cross bracing, I used 1" square tube, to keep it square. I waited to do this and had to constantly keep moving the rails back to squareness until I put in the cross bracing. Tack some cross pieces on top to keep the rails perpendicular. My rails are slightly closer on the bottom than on the top. Others have mentioned keeping the heat down by moving around the frame with the welding. Things will move. Keep checking for square.
[ QUOTE ] Elmo, I'm not 100% sure I understand what your doing with the level? Can you splain that a little more? [/ QUOTE ] Phil, with the laser level, you merely shoot a reference plane in space, let's say 3 feet off the floor. Now place the frame at another plane. Let's say 2 feet off the floor. OK. Now jack the frame in with screw jacks(recommended) or wood or whatever. You measure from points on the frame to this reference plane (there will be a handy red line on your scale (ruler)). Benefits? If you tear your setup down, you can recreate the set up at any time even with a bunch of junk hung in the way of trying to lay levels across flat places. Sound complicated? It's not really. Your "flat" table is just made out of light and you can walk through it and stuff. AAAAAAAAAAND with a little measuring you can set up 2 more planes to measurs right and left, and fore and aft. Wayno
Here's what I've been doing with my Frame, I'll have some pictures of the rear part later... For me it came out pretty square. I've just been using a good level, a square, tape measure & some string... BYC
The Jalopy Journal
