DeSoto Cam And Roller Lifter UPDATE

i have though of two ways to check this. one is a mini spy cam is like $30 on ebay, and if i plan on running a pvc valve useing a hole in the valley cover i could drop a cam in there, the other is on a low deck i would have to have the heads off to drop the lifters in so i could just look in the pushrod holes, i dont have my valve covers off so maybe the pushrod holes are large enough to drop the lifters in with the heads on?, i just havent gotten around to pulling the intake off my 360 to pull a lifter out and check how it would work in my 276.

 

And.............some light in there................

 

and the hemi god said let there be light and there was light..

this little light has come in handy many times, fits right inside spark plug holes and you still have room to see past, another though i had was a two piece valley cover, one to hold the spider that would be bolted down first and then the cover second.

 

73RR.......I realize this is requesting action above the call of the duty......However, do you think that core supplier of yours could reach in that bucket and pull out a set for me? I don't have the contacts /connections you fellows seem to have......Just and old guy trying to build a mid-life crisis hotrod Of course I'll cover all costs. If not I understand.

 

there is a guy close to me sells dodge magnum roller lifters for $3.50 each new, i emailed him to see if he has 16 i can buy.

 

Budd,,,, you were paying attention to the question.
I was just asking if anyone thought it could be done.
You are correct that at TDC and BDC of the lobe there is no load on the lifter and it might have a chance to turn sideways in the bore. Good job!

Now,,link bars were first in the days of Solid rollers,,,now we have hyd. rollers for the street,,no link bars ,,usually spiders.
Maybe we could use some innovation and come up with an idea to eliminate the spiders,,,that was what I was suggesting. It was not my logic,,just an idea for thought.

I do know that a bike can be ridden for a long distance with no hands on the bars,,even ridden around curves if you lean correctly,,,motorcycles can be ridden this way as well.
A lot of talented people can do magic on a bike,,,usually just physics is involved,,and a lot of guts.

Lets see if anyone comes up with any ideas?

Tommy

 

They are available. I have a call in to my core supplier (Vern) to check on his supply, hopefully I'll know something Monday. I am not sure how the used price will compare with the new pieces that Budd mentioned. $3.50 sounds awfully cheap. Vern does have the links and spyders however.

Tommy, look inside any late v-8 with roller lifters and you will find a connecting link of some kind. There simply has to be something there to keep the lifter from rotating. Once again, if we travel back to the 60's, we can find lifters without connecting links, but they had a spline that fit into a slot that had to be cut into the lifter bore...to stop rotation.
The spyder is there to keep the link bar in place so yes, some other means could be adapted.
And, lifters don't lean into the curve.....


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Budd/TR33 : Really appreciate the help Guys. However, let me take this opportunity to give you an example of just how limited my knowlege is on this subject compared to other members of this discussion. I don't know what a "spyder" is or the function of same. I thought the Magnum rollers , with the link bar, just dropped in the tall deck Desoto. Do I also need this "spyder" device?
I apologize for lowering the level of the discussion but I'm just trying to gain a better general understanding of the subject.

 

Ward, no need to aplogise buddy, were all here to learn new things !!

Iif you use the OEM MoPar hyd roller lifterthen you will requie the "spider"as the OEM parts are designed to work in conjucntion with one another.

There is enough meat in the valley to drill and tap, add a short stud and affix the spider into place.

Unfortunately the spider is too long length wise and will need to be sctioned to ensure the lifter retaining tabs are in their correct locations.

I decided to forego all this and wnt with the aftermarket hyr roller with its own link bar.

Rat

 

heres a pic of a comp. cams retrofit spider, not sure of the engine its for but you can see why its called a spider, maybe today i can get my magnum pulled apart and see how the lifters match up with the stock low deck desoto lifter, i want to figure out where the oil hole is and make sure they can be made to work.

 

Thanks for the understanding. Now that I see the "spyder" contraption not sure thats my cup-of tea. Guess there's no inexpensive way to build one of these old hemi's (especially a DeSoto).

TR/Budd: Hold off on the OEM lifters....this spyder thing..... I've got to think about. Damn it's UGLY. But $600.00 for a set of lifters is Ugly too!

 

When you come to terms with that all will be right with your endeveor.....being cool always has a price....
on another note i just recived my roller lifters from overseas and for $160
the quality is very good and wouldn't be surprized that they manufacture for some companies here in the states , i'll be cryogenic tempering them just for a little insurance and since i have the machine why not!

 

what type of roller lifters are they?

 

probably more important is where they from?

 

I would go so far as to stick my neck out and say that the After Market rollers sold by the Cam companies ARE manufactured off shore...

 

got them on egay.....from member maxspeedingrods , there from Hong Kong.. i'll try to post some pics in the am , the quality looks good and the internals also are nice .......

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodg...ptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
From the looks of the other items for sale by this vendor, it would appear that his items are supplied to major OEM suppliers...

 

OK ...Now your just screwing with the Old Man. I know what the cryogenic process is (in general) but who has the machine for it just laying around the garage. I thought I was hot stuff when I got my Gas Mig Welder. I really like the idea of $160.00 for the rollers and you guys are probably correct that these are used/sold under other names.

 

345 YOU my friend are CORRECT.

Dr Freeze...I have the same lifters haha.

There is so much shit made in China and sold in the USA as made in the USA its not funny. Its called doing business.

FWIW, a heap of stufuf is also made here in OZ and gets shipped to the US in Crane/Comp/Moroso boxes as well...among other things.

And yes, I have a set of those rollers too. They are identical to the Comp Cams rollers in every way form what I can see.

Now internally, ....well that may be another thing.

Rat

 

Budd, be sure to let us know how you do on the $3.50 lifter deal.
Inquiring minds want to know.


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this is a responce from an email i sent asking about buying 16 lifters,

heres the ad i found on usedvictoria.com

http://www.usedvictoria.com/classified-ad/9261718

Hi;

I only have 12 of them at the moment and can bring n the other 4 but would be at regular price.

Therefore a set of 16 would be $68.00

Will take about a week to bring in if interested.

 

Well as luck has it I Do have the equipment in my garage i've been in he cyogenic tempering buisness since 1991... yes things are a little slow since most manufactures do the process in house , i still cater to manufactures tooling and motorsport stuff .

 

RAT - I would guess that if the lifters are top quality, and measurements are on the money on the outside, that the internals are probably of the same quality. If I didn't already have a set, I'd DAMN sure snag a set of them...

 

Well I can comment on their fit in the lifter bores.

After I painted the engine internally, I gave then lisfter bores a very qucik hone just to clean then up. Then I proceeded to clean the lifter bores very well bu washing the block, blowing it dry, then lubing the lifter bores with fresh eng oil.

The lifters slide in nice at room temp with no excessive play at all. They also miced up very well to each other whith almost negligble difference in diameter across the 16.

Nice !!

I'll get around to posting some pix soon.

BUMP !

Rat

 

Anybody have performance info on these Hong Kong Rollers in a running engine?

 

Where did everybody go..............You guys have to keep the info coming so I can get up to speed on these early Desoto's.

 

here's the link http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodg...ptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

 

Oh, you know how progress runs in sprurts... Some days you're working on the car, somedays you're working for the car.
One of the best ways to get up to speed and keep the post fresh is by asking pertinent questions. By the way, have you read through all of Scooter's Hemi Tech section? You'll be a real 'expert' after that, or just more confused...lol


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Well got my Hong Kong Rollers today. Will take them down to my engine builder an see what he says. Have to believe in this day and age of "one-world-economy" these rollers are most likely sold under a multitude of names without the consumer knowing the difference.

 

You are correct that at TDC and BDC of the lobe there is no load on the lifter

Actually, what he meant was there was still full open (= maximum) spring load at TDC, but no "centering" force. Any increase in lash allows the roller to turn slightly sideways, and after a certain point it will cock at an angle and refuse to rotate. Result: instant junk.

Rev kits did something else, very different.
The "rated" valve spring stack load in lbs. (100 closed, 250 open etc.) is only true for the components on the long (valve) side of the rocker (valve, collar, lock, rocker roller tip and part of the lever), but the short (pushrod) side of the rocker (tappet, pushrod, adjuster, part of the short lever) get a different rate.
Since most modern engines use a positive (>1:1) ratio, the spring load is always higher than the rated load by the rocker ratio.
Example: 100 lbs. closed, 250 lbs. open at the valve, with 1.5:1 rockers is 150 lbs. closed and 375 lbs. open at the tappet.
They discovered that trying to run big enough springs to control those heavy roller tappets was tough:
1. really big springs not invented yet
2. big spring OD didn't clear the rockers
3. high valve pressure ate the seats and pulled the locks through the collars

A rev kit applies extra spring load only to the tappet and pushrod - the valve seat's load doesn't change.
Example: same 100 lbs. closed, 250 lbs. open with 100 lb. rev kit keeps the valve side at 100/250, but the tappet gets 250 lbs. closed and 475 lbs. open.

The rev kit changes the balance of spring load between the 2 sides of the rocker, otherwise the rocker ratio is the only "adjuster".