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DeSoto Cam And Roller Lifter UPDATE

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 345 DeSoto, Feb 17, 2009.

  1. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 7,175

    73RR
    Member

    If you have a long-nose cam, we can machine the nose for use with short-nose timing chain sets.


    'Machining' means removing material, not adding. The early snout, at the location where you might want to place the sprocket, is smaller than the 56 up cams.
    Have you talked to the bright lites at PAW? Are they are making sprockets specifically for the smaller diameter?

    Best not forget about the woodruff key...the early cam has a smaller key than the 56 up...

    .
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2009
  2. Here's what I did to "drop in" the LA Roller Lifters into my low deck 291 DeSoto. Not much, really...the 2 pictures tell it all. I allowed plenty of room when I opened up the access holes...
     

    Attached Files:

  3. After opening up the access holes on my 291 block, the rollers NOW "drop in"...:D
     
  4. ward3162
    Joined: Sep 11, 2006
    Posts: 40

    ward3162
    Member

    This is without question the most valuable DeSoto Hemi post I've ever found. Just contacted Chet/Doug Herbert about a roller stick for my 341. When you consider the fact it costs +/- $150.00 to have a regrind done the cost of a brand new roller made to your spec's is a no-brainer. Remember, we're talking DeSoto.
    Just want to make perfectly sure I'm understanding all of this when it comes to Hyd. Roller lifters---I'm only concerned with tall deck ----- the LA lifters fit and the Magnum 360's don't . Better yet can someone please supply me with a part number for the exact hyd. roller lifter that will fit my tall deck. Would prefer US made rather than China. Thanks.
     
  5. ward3162
    Joined: Sep 11, 2006
    Posts: 40

    ward3162
    Member

    Sweet Leaping Jesus!.........isn't there a more reasonable alternative. Won't the stock OEM lifters work?
     
  6. jimi'shemi291
    Joined: Jan 21, 2009
    Posts: 9,499

    jimi'shemi291
    Member

    Guys, this is a HUGE help. But please ease my mind. As I told another HAMBer today, I hope to build a 330/341 DeS AND keep lifters hydraulic. Now you got me wondering if a roller/hydraulic may be a great LONG-LIFE combo!!!!!

    Explanation: I've always worried about regular hydraulics and solids, due to metal-to-metal contact (shit! I guess because I tore down my 350 Pontiac and actually found a couple of lifts WORN THROUGH on bottom. Guess that CAM was shot to hell, too, eh?)

    I'm almost 59, and what I wanna do is build a hi-deck DeS my son and son-in-law can't ruin in ONE moment of bad (read that, OVER-REVVING!) BAD JUDGEMENT.

    Where 'm I going? Rat and 73RR, where is the "window" you have mentioned. I have a glimmer. My plan is to put a rev-limiter on it of about 5,000 to 5,500. I figure, I myself have taken a stock Hemi out at least that far and didn't hurt any of the three at all. Bottom end should be balanced and strong, BUT the TOP end needs to hold up its end, right? Jeez, I'm on new ground, so bear with me, guys!!!!!!!
     
  7. jimi'shemi291
    Joined: Jan 21, 2009
    Posts: 9,499

    jimi'shemi291
    Member

    BTW, my other concern is: Lifters are prett easy to replace. WHO wants to re-grind a cam if there's a better way to prolong your cam's life, right?
     
  8. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,724

    George
    Member

    Generaly speaking, you don't have much choice with a 50 yr old cam.
     
  9. Didn't Comp Cams make some lifters for Mopar back in the day that were roller and short to drop in the bores easier?
    They were solid lift ,but short roller lifters.

    Tommy
     
  10. ward3162
    Joined: Sep 11, 2006
    Posts: 40

    ward3162
    Member

    Would prefer to stay with the hyd. roller. Saw somewhere on the HAMB that the 86-89(?) Oldsmobile rollers would work if you hone the lifter bores out 0.017. Anybody else seen/heard of this solution? Have to believe that would save a few bucks over the $600.00 Magnum drop ins.
     
  11. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,724

    George
    Member

    It was either Olds or Buick V6 rollers, I'm thinking Buick. They were talking about non Magnum OEM roller lifters working.
     
  12. Here, FINALLY, are the LA Mopar retro roller lifters IN my 291 DeSoto block...just got the roller and lifters in this afternoon. Doing a little every day on the engine assembley. Taking my time fussing over and enjoying the build. This 291 DeSoto roller business (will they work/won't they work) has been going on for a number of months. I guess they're a TRUE "drop-in" with the 330/341/345 high decks DeSoto, but with the 276/291 low decks, the lifter access holes (NOT the lifter bores) had to be relieved. Once that's done, they "drop" right in through the top. You can see what opening up the access holes I did to get them in, in some of the pictures...
     

    Attached Files:

  13. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 7,175

    73RR
    Member

    Late Magnum rollers also fit, all have same bore size. Late pieces have removable link bar so install through valley. The lifters that Tony shows have a fixed bar.




    I assume that you are referring to the 'hole' in the lifter bore that connects to the oil feed galley.


    .
     
  14. The first picture shows the unmodified lifter access holes...used at the Factory to access the lifter bores for machining. The second picture shows how I modified the access holes to be able to drop the lifters in from the deck...due to the fact that they have a link bar and will not tuck up under the deck (as they are able to do on the tall deck engines) and drop in. the third picture is of the lifters/link bar. The early Magnum rollers don't have a link bar and would most likely "drop in". However, they require a "Spyder" to keep them from rotating. To install the spyder requires some surgical cutting/welding and boring and tapping in the valley for fasteners to retain it. BTW, I scored my rollers on ebay, brand new in the box, for $100 from a guy who had sold the Project that they were going to go in. BIG lucky break...
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 14, 2009
  15. Hey guys,,here is a crazy idea I thought of.

    Hear me out before everyone goes crazy with the comebacks.

    Since these are hyd. roller lifters and they always are in contact with the cam lobe,,,why do they need a link bar?
    Even the factory pieces that have a spyder, should not really need one because the contact with the lobe should always keep the lifter oriented to the correct direction.
    Remember ,,these are hyd.,,,,zero lash, right?

    Even if you had a pushrod failure,,it would just pop out of the bore ,,,just like a regular lifter would do.
    What do you guys think?

    By the way 345,,your engine looks Great,,good idea with the machine work.


    Tommy
     
  16. Guys...Ill post some pix shortly of my lifters installed in my tall deck 330.

    They drop in via the valley as 345 has mentioned - theres no need for any moda to the access holes from the deck side.

    Rat
     
  17. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,724

    George
    Member

    Non rollers spin in the lifter bore, that would cause difficulties with rollers.
     
  18. drfreeze
    Joined: Sep 18, 2008
    Posts: 293

    drfreeze
    Member

    yes they drop right in to tall deck without the mod ..... have to sneak them through the valley
     
  19. ward3162
    Joined: Sep 11, 2006
    Posts: 40

    ward3162
    Member

    73RR: Would you please supply year/model or part number for Hyd rollers that drop in my tall deck(341).

    345: Nice work. Good information.

    Rat Bastard: Guy in New zealand (John Williams) makes a really nice cast aluminum high rise for the tall deck. Has top plates for 1x4, 2x4, 3x2. Nice piece. Bought one a couple months ago. Everyone who has looked at it ..experienced Hotrodders and Machinists are very impressed with casting and design. Search the HAMB for DeSoto High Rise.
     
  20. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 7,175

    73RR
    Member

    Well, it might take some looking...the lifters shown back in post #23 came from my core supplier. He says the Mopar hyd rollers are all the same and when I picked up the last set he simply reached into a 5-gal bucket and fished out 16...I checked and they were all the same. No way to determine what year/model engine they came from.


    .
     
  21. George,
    That is my point,,,,regular lifters do spin ,but rollers always follow the lobe,,,,there is no way the roller could turn sideways,,as long as nothing breaks.

    Tommy
     
  22. Rat Bastard: Guy in New zealand (John Williams) makes a really nice cast aluminum high rise for the tall deck. Has top plates for 1x4, 2x4, 3x2. Nice piece. Bought one a couple months ago. Everyone who has looked at it ..experienced Hotrodders and Machinists are very impressed with casting and design. Search the HAMB for DeSoto High Rise

    Hey Ward...I know, Ive emailed Pete heaps of times but no dice as hes been busy moving house.

    Its a very very nice intake/casting which is why I want one.

    Last i heard he was back into it having set up his new shop but i still cant get any answer from him as to the timing of a blower intake (and I NEED one)

    Pete if you see this thread, let us know what youre up to champ !!

    Rat
     
  23. ward3162
    Joined: Sep 11, 2006
    Posts: 40

    ward3162
    Member

    Rat,

    Did you see the report from T.R.Waters on performance from Petes manifold....much higher performance output with the 2x4 top over the single four. Apparently no info available on the 3x2's. I bought the 2 x4 top.

    Your right I've tried getting ahold of him too and apparently the house move is really impacting his production time. I imagine MAMMA is more concerned with getting her new place in order than a bunch of old HotRodders scattered around the world.
     
  24. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,724

    George
    Member

    If they weren't nessesary the OEMs could save a ton of money not using them. I suspect that there must be a reason.
     
  25. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 7,175

    73RR
    Member

    Sorry Tommy, I can't agree with the logic on this. Flat tappet lifters spin because the lobe is cut with a taper, roller tappet lobes are flat. There is nothing within the small contact patch to make the roller want to follow the lobe. Try this: get on a bicycle, go as fast as you can, let go of the handle bars...the bike might continue straight but only due to the built-in castor of the king pin, but probably not for long. Don't bet on it.
    If your logic was founded in practical experience then link bars would have never been invented.


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  26. 73RR,

    You Sir are......

    CORRECT !!

    Rat
     
  27. budd
    Joined: Oct 31, 2006
    Posts: 3,478

    budd
    Member

    when the ramp on the cam is pushing sideways on the roller that would hold it straight, but when the roller reached the top of the lobe or at bottom dead center there would be no side force and so no reason for the roller not to spin, anyway my idea to mount the spider is to suspend it from a thick aluminum valley cover.
     
  28. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 7,175

    73RR
    Member


    Way back in the 'old days', when roller lifter engines were common (think T/F, 1962-1968) very few went to war without a rev-kit. Due to changes in technology, rev kits are almost unheard of today. Rev-kit installation required drilling into the valley to support the inside hardware and was quite common. I just can't imagine that a bunch of ¼" holes will be a problem in any way.
    The benefit to you is that you will be able to see that all of the parts are where they need to be when the lid is bolted down. A bit hard to see all of the fits and placements the other way.


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