laydown engine??

My next project will use a laydown 4cyl. engine. I would prefer to use a late model DOHC engine..... Focus, Duratech, Miata, etc.....
It can be mounted anywhere from 0 degrees to 20 degrees from horizontal.
I am aware that the main technical problem, to be solved, is the oil "drain back" from the top of the cyl head back to the pan.

I am coming to the esteemed technoids on this forum for any experience, advice, expertise and comments concerning this type of engine installation.

Thanks for any help! mac miller in INDY

 

I'm not sure that's really much of a problem. lots of inline fours are leaned over in midgets. up to 45 degrees.

 

Have you thought about a motorcycle engine? VW or Corvair engine?

 

I just went to your page. Is this going to be a race car or a street machine?? you can pick up some cheap older midget engines. all iron engines around 300hp can be had for fairly cheap. if you want a DOHC late model engine, why not look to the honda K series. 200hp stock with aftermarket support already.

 

20 deg. aint much, if it is a problem just plumb the valve covers.

 

The Toyota Previa vans (early-mid 90s I belive)had a 4 cyl laid over on its side under the passenger seat. I had a wide oil pan covering the bottom/side of the block.
Tim

 

take a look at the Mark Whites book "offenhauser", I think that there are some good drawings and pictures of the Scarab engines and how they did it.

 

Use a Dry Sump.

 

Don't know what your plan is, or the engine displacement you're looking for. but how about an engine/trans package that was designed in a flat plane?

I'm referring to the K series BMW motorcycle engines. Inline four on it's side, fuel injected, five or six speed transmissions, latest versions were 1300cc, 175 horsepower, lightweight, offset shaft drive and lots of aftermarket goodies.

Just a thought!

 

As I expected, you guys are coming up with some good stuff.

A few more details.... This car will be a new replica of the late 50s laydown engine INDY roadsters, such as the Salih and Epperly cars, so the engine must have a similar layout to the inline 4 cyl DOHC OFFY. The engine will be mounted on the front side of the motor plate at its relative "horizontal" angle. Its matching transmission will be mount straight up on the back side of the motor plate. I do expect to have to use a dry sump of some sort.

Have a look a my unfinished working sketches.....

 

I had a Lotus 907 all alloy twincam four in my roadster for a while. It was made to lay over at 45 degrees and was a pretty racy looking motor with Hilborn injection. For that mater Pontiac Tempest four cylinder motors '61 to '63, half a 389, lay over at 45 degrees stock. As do most all banks of most all V8 motors. If you want to run flat lay down i guess sealling the valve cover and running large external oil returns will be important. I stood my Lotus up to make it look more American. Stock the oil level in the cam covers would cover the follower to lobe interface. Upright no deal. So I made stand pipes for the return holes to insure the cams had plenty of oil.

 

you want to run a quad four then.

 

Bingo. External oil reservoir and a belt driven oil pump, look at how Porsche does it... pretty cool and very effective

 

Use a Subaru 2.5 H4 175ish hp stock. Roughly 2" wider than a VW flat-4. Someone makes a Turbo 350 adapter. Or run a turbo version for an easy 300+ hp.

 

If you are planning on running the full belly pan, give some thought to the exhaust system as well. I've built several sets of headers for supermodifieds with the (V8) engines laid over as much as 40deg. Very easy to paint yourself into a corner with low ground clearance and the ports pointing straight at the floor pan...

 

Check out the Esslinger version of a Ford 2300 for midget racing, a cheaper but not as laid over motor is the Focus also for midgets

 

A dry sump system doesn't solve the oil drain back issue from the rocker covers. You still need to have some way for the oil to get back to wherever your pickup is for the dry sump system.


Or you could do a "total loss" system like some of the very early autos and motorcycles, where it just kind of leaked out on to the ground after doing it's lubricating duties.....

 

The dry sump pump will usually have a "stage" plumbed specifically to pick up oil out of the bottom of the head. That's the beauty of the dry sump system, you can pull oil out wherever you need to.

 

Look's like A great project. Keep us posted

 

and a supercharger . 6lbs of boost brought it up to 166 hp, but it also had a funky dual exhast configuration and some looooong intake runners.

if youre thinking tiny 4's how about a bmw k series "flying brick" engine? the 1200's were making 135 hp. theres some sites online turbo'ing them to 200 hp. just ideas.

 

OK...Ford Focus midget engines on sale now at roush racing.....
Oil pan to air cleaner, header and fuel injection,ignition box and clutch,bell housing and water pump all included.. All you need is a belt drive fuel pump !
$ 6995.
Dave

 

Or the valve cover could be plumbed for a return line back to the sump, or several return lines, or even a line directly to the oil pump itself, thus creating a "dual sump" if you will. If the guy can figure out how to set up a dry sump system, plumbing a valve cover for some AN fittings should be a walk in the park

 

=================
Yeah.....and don't forget the other, *real*
advantage of a "total loss" oil system. Once
you get out in front of the pack, none of the
other cars are going to be able to stay with
you, let alone even get close!!!!

mart
============================

 

Toyota celica motors are leaned over from the factory, camry too.

 

I have no blooming idea of any engine to suggest but boy howdy are you taking my language. I'll have to subscribe to this and see where it goes along with hitting your web sites.

 

Re: laydown engine??

Not that you'd likely want to run either of these
engines, but just as an example of what is, was
and can be done - in the 1960's, Chrysler offered
a 'layover' marine version of their slant 6 that
was laid over so as to be completely horizontal.
Also Detroit Diesel made some completely
horizontal "layover" versions of their 3 & 4-53
and 3, 4 & 6-71 series diesels too, for certain
marine and military applications.

mart3406
================================

 

I see no great problem in taking a motor who's normal aplication is near vertical cylinders, and converting it to run with the cylinders near horizontal.
Cut and reshape the oil pan, remake the pickup pipe to the pump, and run an external drain back line from the top end.

Someone mentioned BMW K series, which uses a modified Peugeot unit, in the Peugeot it's near enough upright, where as in the bike it lies down flat.
I rebuilt the bottom end of a Toyota a while back, again the unit lies over flat, but the block is the same as other models which use the engine verticaly, the diffrences between the two engines are only bolt-on parts which could be replicated for other four cylinder units with a little thinking.

 

Is there any issues with oil control in the cylinders? Specifically on a vertical, or even layed over engine but not horizontal, can still drain oil down the cylinder wall. In a horizontal engine, the oil would maybe pool at the bottom of the cylinder? Can conventional vertical style oil rings control oil that is not assisted drainback by gravity?

I seem to recall those BMW K-bikes had a problem with oil smoke at start-up because of oil migrating past the rings. The smoke would go away shortly after starting. Kind of like SBC with worn valve guides.

 

If you park a K series BMW on the prop stand,
the cylinders are angled downhill the wrong way,
plus in order to make the thing fit a motorcycle the sump had to be quite shallow, which works out as less than ideal,
but if we are talking about somewhere between 20 and zero degrees above horizontal
oil will stay in the sump and not try and find a way passed the rings when the motor is stopped.