Hypothetical question. Could you run a direct injection turbocharged deisel motor on straight nitromethane? Or a mixture of nitro and diesel fuel? It should work right? Would it even spontainiously combust properly without something to light it? If it won't work, why won't it? Just curious. Thanks. -Jeff
The ignition temperature for this fuel is much, much higher than that obtainable in compression ignition engines , diesels compress air, raising its temperature, then inject a mist of fuel which ignites in the hot air.
can't explain why, but I got a buddy who had a diesel suburban stolen and the guys who stole it put in regular gas and anly made it to the end of the onramp to the freeway and practically blew the heads off. I don't think it would enjoy the 25:1 compression or whatever they have...
Nitro doesn't want to burn,it needs something to get it started,so I doubt it would run on 100% Nirto. The Top Fuel guys used to run 5% Alcohol,and would start the motors on straight gasoline before turning on the fuel.The difference in sound was amazing. I'm sure you could mix diesel and Nitro, but it would get expensive in terms of fuel burned and parts broken. Might be cool for Bonneville.
Natural Gas/Propane is the Nitromethane for Diesels. That is what I have heard. None of my sources are creditable because it comes from the mouths of bullshitters... If anyone can explain this I would like to know more also.. Justin
[ QUOTE ] Natural Gas/Propane is the Nitromethane for Diesels. That is what I have heard. [/ QUOTE ] Propane is the Nitrous Oxide of deisels because it changes the Flash point!!! My understanding of NitroMethane is that it takes a greater compresion than other fuels allowing the piston to squeeze the mixture to nearly a solid before it is ignited! Where as Deisel fuel ignites itself at a much lower compression. I Know there are a couple of "Top Fuelers" that can answer better than me so I'd like to see if I partially correct on this analogy...! Mark
FWIW Nitro will diesel if it loses spark in a hole once it has been started, but I don't think it necessarily does so predictably every time. Or how controllable it is. Not to mention it explodes less completely = less power. But if an exhaust valve stays closed too long (ie break an exhaust rocker arm) it'll hydraulic and total catastrophe might salvage the mags but everything else will be useless. I honestly don't know enough to elaborate much further.
That dude Stacey on Trucks put that Banks or Bullydog Propane injection AND nitrous on a Duramax and got like 450+ horsepower and God knows how much torque at the rear wheels with it.
The Diesels I have worked on ( long time ago, and not that many) did not have a throttle, although I believe that some Mercedes Trucks did... So without a throttle the Engine always gets the full amount of Air, so the amount of oxegen is known and pretty constant for a given powerstroke at a given RPM. A Turbo will effect it, but my guess is the goal is to raise it as evenly as possible to a higher pressure. The Engine will run lean as it comes from the Factory for emissions and to keep it from blowing black smoke. So my guess is you can raise the HP by injecting more diesel, or experiment with something else that will burn. But the ceiling will be the amount of Oxegen unless the Fuel you burn has Oxegen in it (like Nitro ) or you inject N2O... Edit, If I remember right, different Fuels have a different speed at which they burn.( so that would change the speed at which the burn or explosion at the power stroke happens. So then you are messing with the Timing of the Engine...
Nitromethane is very hard to light and burns very slowly when it does get lit. Also the fuel/air ratio for nitro is such that the deisel injectors and pump would not be able to cary enough fuel volume. Propane is like nitrous oxide for deisels. My dad had a Mack truck with a propane sniffer plumbed directly into the air intake. When loaded and going up a hill you just cracked the sniffer valve and didn't have to downshift to climb. He only had it on there for awile because its hard on the engine. Brad
Propane will burn as well as diesel in a diesel engine but with no real increase in power. Methanol will burn so violently, if you can make it explode, that every cylinder might get to do it once. The best way to increase horse power in a diesel is to give it more air, lower compression to let the air in and plenty of fuel pressure with retarded injection. If you have the ability to deliver the air, horsepower normally increases with the proportionate amount of fuel. Double the fuel pressure and double the power. The colder the air the higher it's benefits, especially when it's a little moist. However, the maintenance of a high output diesel is not proportionate to the performance. Double the fuel and triple the maintenance at least. Been there, done that, paid the bills, broke the bank. Be warned.
Propane has been used for a long time in diesels by pulling boys. But i dont put too much faith in it. Since a diesel is not fired by spark but by compression. If you would get it to fire i think you would be looking somewhere out in the field for the other half of your heads. Everything i own at work here is all diesel. Some of the larger engines your looking around 3500 psi for compression. 120 psi is good in most gas engines. TO make one run. jack up the fuel and the air and it will come to life. I just picked up a new KW running a cat c-15 im with the upgrade and twin turbos im just over 550 horse. Not to bad for a lowboy.
turned up my old twin turbo cummins 475 to 720, just altering pump settings, and used a #5 button. Wonder what a 00 would have done?
Don't deisels rely on the heat created by compressing the fuel to a high degree to cause ignition? That being the case, most "fuels" including Nitromethane are significantly "colder" and would require much more compression to cumbust. They are also more "active" in that they compress to a greater degree than diesel. Long story short, I think if you were able to achieve enough compression and fuel volume to get Notro to combust, you'd blow the motor to about a million, teeny-tiny little peices. Or am I faulty... I mean is my logic faulty?
Ok, this is purely hypotherical at this point. I don't have a diesel that I'm currently working on . Just wanted to know if it was possible. I was thinking about newer truck turbodiesels like the Cummins and Powerstrokes, but in a vehicle that wouldn't be driven daily. I know all about propane and diesels, I want to do something more exotic. Would the glow plug help with ignition, or a hotter prechamber(if that's possible) With a turbo or supercharger, you could crank the boost way up to get even more compression(assuming yopu don't blow the heads off it). Would a higher alcohol content nitro mix, like a 50/50 light any easier? Here's another thing I'm wondering. Top grade model airplane gas is 50% nitro and 50% caster oil. It works in 2 cycle model airplanes, why won't it work in a larger old style 2 cycle diesel engine? -Jeff
[ QUOTE ] Don't deisels rely on the heat created by compressing the fuel to a high degree to cause ignition? That being the case, most "fuels" including Nitromethane are significantly "colder" and would require much more compression to cumbust. They are also more "active" in that they compress to a greater degree than diesel. Long story short, I think if you were able to achieve enough compression and fuel volume to get Notro to combust, you'd blow the motor to about a million, teeny-tiny little peices. Or am I faulty... I mean is my logic faulty? [/ QUOTE ] "EXACTLY"...! You did good...!
If you want to know more about Full Race Diesel Engines. Try and find some info on the European Truck Race Series. It is a Road Track Championship that is run on the Road Race tracks all through Europe. The Trucks are fully Race prepaired single purpose race cars with heavy Factory backing. They get some unbelieveble HP numbers out of those ( production based ) engines...
[ QUOTE ] Would the glow plug help with ignition, or a hotter prechamber(if that's possible) With a turbo or supercharger, you could crank the boost way up to get even more compression(assuming yopu don't blow the heads off it). -Jeff [/ QUOTE ] The Cummins doesn't have glow plugs or a pre-combustion chamber. For cold starts if has a heater grid in the intake manifold, so the first slug of air is warm. 17.5:1 compresion and a *really* healthy starter is all it takes. The Cummins is capable of 100psi of boost (with aftermarket head studs, special head gasket, and more). Read any of the Diesel hotrod boards and it'll blow you away. Mine takes 35 psi of boost with 180,000 on the head gasket just fine (although it doesn't get there too often).
I'm pretty sure the model airplane guys run something extra in their fuel,besides Nitro and oil. Most likely Alcohol,or something else to get the Nitro started. Lowering the Nitro percentage would make it easier to ignight,but wouldn't make as much HP. Look into sequential turbocharging,popular on the Super Stock pulling tractors, that will make some SERIOUS HP.
Nitro doesn't really burn, it explodes. It takes damn near a welding rod spark to get it lit. Diesel fuel is low grade, burns slow. It's close to jet fuel in its lack quality compared to gasoline(s). The propane and turbo boost ideas are those that work best with Diesels. The latest Diesel developments are the "camless" engines by Sturman Industries - very cutting edge stuff as valves are opened/closed by hydraulic pressure rather than mechanical springs/cams/pushrods etc. Theirs is the only 18-wheeler rig I've ever seen that doesn't belch black smoke. Since the "cam" is programmable, it offers low lift/duration at low rpm and more with higher rpm in a linear fashion. They'll be breaking into the automotive scene soon. So, with your Diesel - Don't add nitro. Add propane and boost...You'll make enough power to break it eventually. Keep an eye out for the Sturman Camless technology. You'll want it as bad as I do. It is brilliant and it works. Scotch!~
I may be wrong but don't super stock tractor pullers run deisels on alchohol with 2 or 3 stages of turbos? I haven't seen one since I was a kid but they'd start out at low rpm with heavy black smoke which would turn white when the engine rpms went up and switched from diesel to alky? Brad
Most the time thats just raw fuel... Most all of my diesels are in heavy equipment aka dozers scrapres and all of that. I do have 3 over the road trucks 1 dumb-truck 1 dozer truck and 62 Diesel pickups in my fleet.
[ QUOTE ] The latest Diesel developments are the "camless" engines by Sturman Industries - very cutting edge stuff as valves are opened/closed by hydraulic pressure rather than mechanical springs/cams/pushrods etc. Theirs is the only 18-wheeler rig I've ever seen that doesn't belch black smoke. Since the "cam" is programmable, it offers low lift/duration at low rpm and more with higher rpm in a linear fashion. They'll be breaking into the automotive scene soon. [/ QUOTE ] Holy shit that's cool. I read a Kevin Cameron article a few years back and he was talking about electronic cams, and suggested that turbo diesels would be a good first use for them because of the need for a variable lift & duration (low rpm, no boost & high rpm, with boost) added to the fact that they turn such low rpm. I've been waiting to hear something about it. Glad to hear it's a reality. And this is traditional because I tow a lot of project/broken hotrods with my diesel truck.
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