I have nothing to add other than this thread could (and should) turn into something more significant than a couple guys saying "I want to do it like they did in the good ol days" Im glad you guys are into it enough to actually do it because anyone whos been to the HAMB drags in the last couple years and is obsessed with "the good ol days" knows that seeing one of these cars is way cooler than watching a beer advertisement and a parts store adverstisement drive down a track. Brian, if you need a tire wiper, just let me know.
I just got back from the woodburn oldie drags I was the starter for a clutch car there (scary shit the first time). And I'm building a clutch car . I would say more air in the tires and drive through the water and any tire will spin, but hold on to your ass when it hooks. Is your car done Tim? Have you made A pass yet? Still working on mine
That's the thing Marshall...No water. Brian and I are trying to figure out the combination for a hard, fast smoking pass. Once again, this is not about doing an exhibition, controlled burnout "Smoke Show." I think it's great you're still working on your car. Mine is where it was when I took it to the March Meet in '08, oil primed and ready to fire. I just need a complete, legal fire suit/mask, new M&H slicks and 3 batteries for the starter. Including fuel and oil, I'm about $6500 away from getting my advanced E.T. license. So, here are the elements we have to work with... *Direct drive, pedal clutch, no computer, front engine rail under 180" wheelbase. *Perfectly flat, safe, very high quality racing surface coated with traction compound (no way around this.) *Choices for slicks are - M&H 12.00x16 NTF spec tire, Radir, M/T, Moon, Coker/Firestone street/strip slicks, Hot Rod Rubber re-caps on radials or, all the current drag slicks that are engineered to work WITH the traction compound that's applied to the tracks. *Snout starter capability for warming up in the pits. We need to convince tracks to let us push down on every run. Theories I've heard so far from PROFESSIONAL racers - "Tire shake will be a problem with new slicks due to their flimsy sidewalls and gummy compounds. These tires want to 'dry up' and hook while spinning, which sometimes causes massive tire shake." "I don't see a problem other than making sure you have the h.p./torque to overpower the track. Watch your r.p.m.'s and make SURE that !@#$er's pointed straight when the tires dry up and hook." "The slicks from the '60s HOOKED WHILE SPINNING. They planted all the tread flat on the track the entire 1/4 mile and growth was minimal. Stiff sidewalls made that happen." "Baby step the process. Have someone push you around a big parking lot or something (with the actual push car you're going to use) until you get used to steering and maneuvering the car. This will also help you in getting a feel for the clutch. When it's time to run, stage like you plan to (i.e. go around the water box etc.) then do short bursts, followed by driving the car down the track. Sneak up on this, watch your rpms." "Make sure the roll out on each slick is as close as possible. Tire pressure must be EQUAL. Watch out for tire pressure. Too much gives the tire a crown, too little will make the tire cup. Either way means less tire surface on the track." "You gotta strike the tires on the leave or that thing's gonna stand on the 'chute." "That traction compound is going to make your bite with a spinning tire choppy and inconsistent." "WHY?" Okay, there it is. I think I'm going to put a red shift lite under my cowl that flashes when my rpms are close to redline. Damn, I'm late for work!
Lots of power and dont prep track. If you run at a show after the slower car and the street cars run and they dont prep the track its slick.
When "Rails" first started appearing at the races they were a compleatly unknown enity - long - skinny - lightweight - on the edge machines. Slicks were unknown - hot fuel was "High Test" or "Av-Gas" (Aviation Gasolene 115/145) - they ran stock clutches and three/four speed trannies. When "Launched" from the line roaring engines and lots of smoke were the result - they shifted as many times as necessary to keep the motor together - this usually resulted in more smoke - and higher "Top Ends" than any Stocker go ever imagine. When the Crews got back to the Pits and down loaded all their data (A whole bunch of hollering - laughing - pushing - and back slapping showed that High RPM's + Hot/Hotter Gas + Smoke = Wild Runs and Wins. This was proven time and again for the first ten yrs or so of Organized Drag Racing by the car that Smoked the most and longest usually won - and the comments of the Old Hats - Did you see that - we had them by a mile - they couldn't even smoke the first half of the track. As the cars evolved - Higher Ratio rear ends - Two Speed Trannies - Tall Skinny Slicks were all driven by the same formula as above (RPM's+Octane+Smoke=Winner). It was the mantra of track owners and promoters -SCREAMING TIRE BURNING SLINGSHOT DRAGSTERS - SUNDAY------------ All the while those dedicated to the sport - owners - builders - drivers - parts makers wanted two things - more wins and more speed. Special dedicated equipment started to appear - cars were tested during the week - real data was collected and the formula began to change - gearing - fuel mixtures - tire sizes and pressures - chassis design until today it looks something like - Big Bucks+No Smoke=Wins. If you want to run a tire smoker get an early FED design chassis - an old Pontiac 3.25:1 rearend - a high reving chevy small block - injected on alcohol - a two speed Ford Toploader and a Ford one ton clutch assembly - with the old piecrust 10 in. slicks and smoke it from end to end. Put on a show and laugh all day long.
This has gotten way to technical for me, but as someone who was there I think those full 1/4 tire smoking side by sides are exactly what is missing from the nostalgia scene.
I love the IDEA of all this! My only concern is, just like all other aspects of competition, you guys will hit a performance "wall" and stagnate just like the big leagues are now (only with sexier cars). It will be FUN for everyone involved for a couple of years but hey, maybe that's just fine......
Maybe I missed it above, but any thought's / discussions with tire makers about making a tire with a harder compound (less sticky). Not sure what the durometer of the vintage pie crusts was but I'm sure it is a lot higher than todays tires. Compund is easy to change vs tire construction. The first (or second?) time I went to the Goodguys Indy show, Art Chrisman in Hustler I and the Mooneyham Sharp coupe made full smoker passes. Sure, Art was only making a smoke show (60 ft time was something like 3 sec.), but I'm too young to have been there and that image and sound is burned into my brain like those tire tracks down the full length of the track. I'd love to see it done like it was back in the day. I remember seeing Garlits do the same at Indy, not sure if it was the same show. This was the era before full length concrete walls any flypaper tracks.
Nobody wil make these tires anymore for safety reasons. Changes in technology and tire compounds have had to change for legal purposes. its kind of a drag because it takes away from where racing came from. Its boring to see 20 cars go down the track within a tenth of each other all day long. everyone like a tight race its exciting but not when its becasue your delay box was timed right your air shifted trans was consistant and your box took the right amount of timing out at the right time. Technology is cool and all i mean hell it got you the tire smokers we all love but now its about safety, whos the fastest, and the money we cant forget the money. Your best bet to build a tire smoker with todays tires would be a little tougher than it used to be. the radir slicks will be your best bet by far. they have a harder compound and a stiffer sidewall which will be key. too stiff of a sidewall and the tire wont want to get tall and skinny which is what your looking for less of a footprint. but if the sidewall isnt stiff enough from the start your going to have a wide footprint untill you get some speed in the tires then tey will stand up. so a moderatly stiff sidewall and a harder compound will be your best bet. other than that just messing with weight distribution would be key. shift yourself a little further back less weight over the rearend. even an inch makes a difference trust me i hear it all the time. play with the weights on the front the amount the placement things like that. the more weight you shift further from the axle centerpoint in the rear the better luck you will have. Technology takes the fun out of everything anymore. good luck and i hope you find what your looking for
"If you want to run a tire smoker get an early FED design chassis - an old Pontiac 3.25:1 rearend - a high reving chevy small block - injected on alcohol - a two speed Ford Toploader and a Ford one ton clutch assembly - with the old piecrust 10 in. slicks and smoke it from end to end. Put on a show and laugh all day long." THIS would be a good place to start I think, but why the 2 speed tranny? Brian is pretty much here right now (with direct drive) and he's running. So far no major damage either. Alcohol is saving him big bucks and there isn't a need for a snout or push start. He can run slicks that are currently available (like the Radirs) and they're smaller size actually looks right on his car, due to it's short wheelbase, smaller chevy engine and overall smaller size. Like Choke said earlier, there's a 16x10 available now that's 30" tall. PERFECT for a 140" chevy car. It looks like I should just chuck my big Ogden/Donovan set-up and build a '66 style Jr. Fuel injected chevy car. Very strong, small, SAFE, 140" legal chassis, direct drive/pedal clutch, iron block chevy with Hilborn injection on 80% (over 1000 h.p., pretty reasonable $) and those new 16x10x30" slicks. THAT'S the car to sort this smoker deal out with. They (Jr. Fuelers) trained a LOT of drivers and tuners back then too. Choke or King can build a chassis for it in a couple weeks, no chrome, no paint, no polish...ALL BUSINESS. AVAILABLE NOW, every single part to do it and all brand new with the perfect look (Hilborn still makes all their badass early stuff!!!) Learn nitro. R&D the smoking run. Drive it all weekend long until you're sick of it! No need to take a chance on destroying a piece of drag racing history. As far as the stagnation thing Jeem, I mean current racing is stagnating in every area BUT technology. Big T/F cars are capable of going much faster than they're allowed to, image, vehicles and marketing are too commercial and predictable etc etc. What I'm proposing is an entirely new learning curve with a (new?) type of vehicle...Hell, I'd like to build a tire smoking late '60s style lay-down Harley or a direct drive fuel coupe like the 554 too! Man, there are aftermarket gas harley motors available complete right now that make more h.p. and torque than the H.D. FUEL motors did in the 60s!!!! Marshall had another good point...That traction compound get's SLICK when it isn't re-applied for a while. Just take a look at the video of Garlits repeatedly spinning out while trying to smoke 'em in his new hemi/old car. It looks like he was running some ancient slicks on that thing. Can someone post that video? King Chassis (Brian Fox) just built a legal chassis (7.0 and slower?) for Randy Ritchie, who's now covering it with a 'chute tail body. Maybe if we ask real nice he'll post some spy pics of it... - More later
Tim, you probably should make that Enderle instead of Hilborn, as 95% of all the jr. fuelers I ever saw ran the Enderles on Chevies. Adams obviously had great success with the Hilborn, but he did it with a Chrylser/Desoto. I ran this car in the mid 70s on prepped tracks, although not prepped to the extent they are today. This was on gas (definitely less than 500 hp), and it would smoke the tires to the 1/8th mile at will. Low buck parts, direct drive, 990 pounds "wet," and 10.50 X 15 M&Hs (current at the time.) I never had even a hint of tire shake. I think you could do to it with a light car, adequate power, and a relatively high rear gear. I moved on to the more competitive stuff and am still there today, but blazing the tires on this car was some of the best fun I ever had. It wasn't at all competitive e.t.-wise, but it occasionally ran faster than the mph record. Here's a shot of the tire I used.
sorta like what happened to prufer and burnett (sp) deal back in the 80's...i remember reading about smoking the tires was a requirement....and required a lot of tires...
I would love a set for the Fly. I have 16x10 Halibrands on the rear and the only tires I have found are either too big or the ones I have now, which are wrinkle walled.
Yes...pics please..... I'd liek to see more pics of the Jr. Fuelers too......did guys run full bodies/chute pack bodies on Jr's???
For the most part, no. The idea was to get them as light as possible. Short, mag bodies, spot brake on only one rear wheel, etc.
I can't add anything technical here, only an observation from a "pit donkey" that was there. We were running the "Norris Bros." TF440 in division 4, '70-'71. 200" T-Bar chassis, 392,4 hole Hilborn "Laguna lean outs". Triple disk slipper, 95%. Our driver was 19, and still learning, hell, all of us were "still learning". We missed the setup a lot. Being one of the last FED's in the devision, we were the underdogs all the time. I remember when we missed on the tune and Pat blew off the tires either until he pedaled, or sometimes all the way when he legged it out of frustration, the crowd would go wild. When we got everything right and nothing but clutch dust came out the crowd was "ho-hum". I remember Pat saying that he couldn't feel much difference between a smokey run and a no smoke run except for how long it took. The only thing I'd advise is a reverser. I got run over twice getting the car back into the staging area. And with litigation what it is today, one mistake and you are through. As far as push off's, I think they would be great, I know the people hanging on the fence really love it. Except a lot of new tracks don't have room for a digger to come down the return loop and make the swing in the staging area. Personally, I think the crowds would love it. Moderen Top Fuel is kind of sanitary, it lacks the passion of the old days. I know I'd pay to see it. Mike
Not entirely on topic but here is a push start i recorded at the hamb drags. <embed width="448" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" src="http://smg.photobucket.com/flash/player.swf?file=http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v298/NIck32vic/HAMB Drags 08/PICT0503.flv"></embed>
HAHA! Heres KING CHASSIS!!! Forgot i even had this video! <embed width="448" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" src="http://smg.photobucket.com/flash/player.swf?file=http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v298/NIck32vic/HAMB Drags 08/PICT0472.flv"></embed>
Conder here are a few spy photos of Randy Richeys digger. This car is one of my Legal Kings. As a mater of fact this car is HEAVILY INFLUENCED BY YOURS. Randy is doing a supurb job on the body. Legal car that has "THE LOOK". Man I love this car. Randy you da man.
Why a two speed? Have ya ever heard a dragster shift and the crowd noise drown out the rest of the run? With the subject. your'e not talking making money - it's about making a show - push starts are cool but it ain't gonna happen at sanctioned tracks - one mistake and your'e into the staging lanes.
Cool to see. I didnt know video existed. That is the run that my mag was WAY retarded. Discovered after that pass. I knew it wasnt making any power and lifted.
Yeah I kind of forgot I took that video until I looked on my photobucket for the video of when i was riding with Whitney to pushstart "The Lump"
don't quote me on this but I think the way around the tire shake with the new slick is go for a radial slick not the d.o.t drag radials with tread but a slick with radial construction both goodyear and hooiser make them https://www.hoosiertire.com/Drtire.htm http://www.racegoodyear.com/tires/pdf/drag_front_runner.pdf both have pretty much the same sizes a 32x13.5 looks like the closest your looking for,with the radial construction spinning the tire while trying to hook they won't wad-up like the new bias will it looks like they come in a med compound too witch might be good or bad depending,anyhow I figured i'd throw my two cents in I'm just a fan of both what you king chassis are doing if i had the guts i'd pull the motor out of my door car and stuff it in a fed,but i digress wait till I start my next project can you say crank mounted blower on a 425 olds
"don't quote me on this but I think the way around the tire shake with the new slick is go for a radial slick not the d.o.t drag radials with tread but a slick with radial construction both goodyear and hooiser make them https://www.hoosiertire.com/Drtire.htm http://www.racegoodyear.com/tires/pd...ont_runner.pdf both have pretty much the same sizes a 32x13.5 looks like the closest your looking for,with the radial construction spinning the tire while trying to hook they won't wad-up like the new bias will it looks like they come in a med compound too witch might be good or bad depending,anyhow I figured i'd throw my two cents in I'm just a fan of both what you king chassis are doing if i had the guts i'd pull the motor out of my door car and stuff it in a fed,but i digress wait till I start my next project can you say crank mounted blower on a 425 olds" Priceless, fantastic input. Yeah, Prufer is a BAD MOFO on many levels, and that NDRA deal in the 80's was a great idea. I heard the drivers started "cheating" with the clutch and were pissed they "had" to smoke the tires...I wasn't following that stuff back then, but did they use water? I've seen video from then and Chrisman's hustler was rolling through water and running low 11's while smoking the tires. Didn't that car used to run in the 8s or 9s smoking them dry back in the day ('50s-early '60s?) Most (all?) of the NDRA cars were updated old cars right? Possibly making the same power they were in the mid-sixties? I remember reading those guys gave up on the smoker thing and current NTF came from that. If someone was there and heavy into the early NDRA days I'd love to hear what you think (or saw) back then...
The Jalopy Journal
