Technical Cadillac flathead horsepower tricks

I checked with my cam grinder, and he said , The Winfield 1A should be set at .010" intake and .012" exhaust, with solid lifters.

He also told me that it would pull well in the 2000 rpm-5000 rpm, with 5500 rpm max, with 750 cfm carburation.

Any thoughts on this?

Russ, did you ever get the pics from Tom on the oiling system?

Aaron, you mentioned that someone had cut/trimmed the front motor mounts on you engine, and that the dizzy was in the rear center. Is is possible the front motor mounts were added, not trimmed?

the 1936 Caddy 322 had the center mounted dizzy, or at least the only one I ever saw did, and they did not have the front motor mounts.

 

Barry Burrell was kind enough to send me this. I thought it was very interesting that GM claimed max operating range at 3450 rpm, but the test went to 4000 rpm.

It sure makes a statement for the dual exhaust, and 2x2 intake

 

Ok here are some specs on the lifters I thought one could make fit with little work. The dodge lifter is a 218-6 the Packard lifter is a 288

 

HOT ROD, THE DODGE 6 WOULD WORK, IF THE VALVE BLOCKS WERE SLEEVED FOR THE SMALLER DIAMETER. GOOD IDEA!

HERE IS A FORD FLATHEAD THREAD I FOUND IN THE TECH ARCHIVE. A LOT OF THE INFO, LIKE THE PORTING, APPLIES TO THE CADDY FLATHEAD.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23305

 

The first pic is my dual exhaust, prepped and ready to ship today to get cermakromed. Stock drivers side, and stock series 80-90 passenger side. I will use the crossover ports for exit.

Last pic is for my second set, with more of a factory look. It is the passenger side off of a 1936 caddy. I will use it with a 1937 passenger side. I will turn the 1937 around, and use it on the driver side- very little work, simply relocate the alignment dowell in the block. I'll be removing the crossover ports from both pieces, for a cleaner look. I'll send pics when they are prepped and ready for shipping.

 

Here is pics of my tri-power. nothing fancy, but it is functional. I just need to grind/smooth out the welds and rough edges, bead blast, and send it off for coating. The pics are not very good, as the carb bases do not appear to be aligned. They are exactly the same height, and are in fact in alignment.

I should have a hei conversion done in about two weeks, and I'll post it

WWW.FLATCADDY.COM will be up and running soon. It will be a central shopping site for hi-po flathead caddy parts. contact Keeper if you have an item you want to list. These will all be new items, not used, unless you have something rare to list.

 

wow i like that intake..i was thinking of using the flat head from my old hearse in some kind of a hot rod, but wasnt sure about being able to afford the parts..if i didnt use this engine, how much would a low mileage good running 46 caddy flathead be worth? i might just sell it and use the money to build my 8ba instead..the car is still in the planning stage so dont know which way to go..i am open to sugestions
http://s202.photobucket.com/albums/aa84/rcplumley/hearse/?action=view&current=HPIM0716.jpg

 

The solid lifters have been sent out to several people now, and I'm curious to hear some feedback.

What did everyone think?

They will be available at www.flatcaddy.com, or by contacting Keeper

Whiskey Runner, there is only one answer to that- go with the Caddy flattie!

 

Buddy,
They are bitchin! Very nicely made part, The market is waiting for this and IT's Now Here!
Talk to you soon,
CK.

 

Hey, that's cool Buddy! Reminds me a lot like the one I saw MANY years ago. I bought a lasalle box from a guy that had a home-made tripower sitting on his floor. When he showed me it had 2 bases welded to the runners either side of the centre base.....of course, they sat about an inch higher!

 

Hi Buddy. Got your advice re hardening thanks. You'll see I've sent you pics showing the Solid Lifter siting in a spare lifter block of mine... Looks the goods Man ! I mic'd 'em & totally comparable.
I appreciate the opportunity to get this gear as it's going to be the only way to make a T700/4.10 rear work & I'll pm you re an order for lifters and a cam grind to suit the T700 ( Stupid.. putting an auto in the HotRod while putting a 5speed Manual in the Jag ! )
I would have posted pics here of lifters & my flamed engine mounts but too dumb to reduce jpg size ( I'll have to get lessons from the kids)

Any thoughts re valve float at 5 to 5.5K, will the stock valves at 66lbs / 1 & 59/64ths length still be OK with new cam/solids ?

For the Aussies out there.. S'pose youve all seen the latest, June, Street Machine article on Rod Hadfields Caddy Flatty powered '35 pick up ( I keep thinking Beverely Hills Hillbilly car whenever I look at it, just needs Grannys rocker on the back ) Interesting comments & interesting that it appeared 1st in a street/muscle car mag, before the HotRod mags.. I'd forgotten, from when I called in R.H. but the article lists Ignition Developments, in seaforth, as having updated the dizzy.
Cheers
Wayne

 

Kevin, Wayne,Peddro, thanks for the kind words. We think everyone will be pleased.

Still would like to hear what everyone else thinks!

Wayne, here are your pics. First, your lifters, second, your motor mounts and they are awesome! Last is Hadfields pickup, I think.

 

G'day all.. Just a bit more re Carbs, beyond 94's & Roche 2GC's.
I had a dig around my stock 2bbl manifolds as from memory, one had a big lump of a carb on it.. yup a 2 bbl Holley rated at 500 cfm using a Speco Thomas adaptor ( Aussie Co. I'll call 'em on Monday to see if they still stock them.
The adaptor is machined, the ports opening from stock 1 + 7/16" up to the Holley's 1 + 11/16th" bore.
So apart from allowing a 350 or 500 holley on a stock 2 bbl manifold, the pics below show that they also fit the Edmunds though Carbs would need a section cut from the aircleaner lip to allow opposed fitment... hadn't looked at it but given that a Holley will now bolt up, so perhaps would one (or a pair) of their 2bbl EFI throttle body kits
Cheers
Wayne

 

Nice detective work Wayne.

 

Wayne, that looks like a good option to get all the cfm's you'll need!

 

Here are a couple of hei's I just finished for the caddy flatheads.

The black one is a true hei, with enough spark to bbq. It isn't the prettiest thing, but it is powerful!

The red one was a special request. It is a small cap, remote coil hei.

I also included a couple of better pics of the tri-power, which I sent off yesterday to be coated. It should look pretty good dressed with carbs.

I spent half a day at our local machine shop, making a adapter to fit the ford 427 flywheel to the motor. When we got done, it 'tweaked' .020, so when they started over, I headed for home. I'll send pics when I get it.

 

very nice work.

 

The Flathead Cadillac community have come together and I am announcing the official launch of

www.FlatCaddy.com

There are a total of 8 unique parts offered on the site so far, but we are actively looking for more. So if you or anyone you know makes something specially tailored for a Flathead Cadillac please let me know so we can put it on the site.

FlatCaddy.com is a unique site in that each part is sold directly by the person that created it. FlatCaddy.com just gives us a chance to see all the parts in one place. When you purchase a part you will be taken to the sellers PayPal account, so there is no middle man jacking up the price or getting in the way. I have requested as much contact info from each seller as possible so it will be very clear and easy to contact them directly.

So check it out and let me know what you think. All opinions are accepted and welcomed.

 

Very cool site.

 

I don’t know squat about the Cad flattys but have some knowledge about the Fords and Merc V-8 flattys. I was interested in the graph posted as to the Cad M-24 tank Hp & torque curves. I don’t know what mods were made to the Cad on the graph to increase the values of HP & Torque. I was unable to read the sheet of text posted aside of the curve on your HAMB post. I don’t know that there are any magical solutions to your questions posted on the thread but here’s my .02 cents.

Mac VanPelt has some Ford HP & Torque graphs on his website. I asked him to e-mail me a clear copy of the 1939-1940 Merc, 85HP graph.

One noticeable difference between the Cad graph and the Merc graph is the Torque curve on the original M-24 (and the modified) seems to have a much greater drop-off than the Merc after 2000 RPMS. Both the Merc and the Cad reach peak torque @ ~2000 rpm but the Cad drops sharply until 4000 rpm (falling from 240 ft/# to 115.) The Merc drops from about 175 to 110. If I did my math right the Merc dropped 37.2% (100-(110/175)) from 2000 to 4000 rpm and the Cad dropped 52.1% (100-(115/240). This seems to be a significant difference I don’t have any idea as to why but could possibly be due to the longer stroke in the Cad. Note that both the Cad graph and the Merc graph both stop their data at around 4000 rpm. Even after the mods were made to the M-24 the torque and HP numbers increased but the slopes remained basically the same. The peak HP on the Cad moved from around 3000 RPM to 3500 RPM.

The stock M-24 HP peaks at around 3000 RPM and the Merc peaks at around
3500 RPM.

I don’t know about the Cad V-8 cylinders layout but the Ford & Merc were engineered on the DeSaxe Principal whereby the crank and cylinder centerlines are offset by 3/16” in the rotational direction. During crank rotation the piston moves about 2 degrees greater on the down-stroke than on the up-stroke. This allows for longer and better intake breathing and supposedly allows for a smoother running engine. I have no idea if this may or may not contribute to HP &Torque differences. The Ford/Merc piston pins were not offset but if the pins are offset in the Cad pistons the same effect would be seen.

I have an old hardbound book I purchased from a website in England written by Ford engineers but it is not dated, recommended to me by Bruce Lancaster. The book is titled “An elementary text book of Automobile Engineering”. A lot of high level math included but it does discuss torque. Mean torque is a calculation ((BHP/RPM)*5252)). It basically says that torque is produced by piston pressures and, connecting rod angles & positions. (DeSaxe Principal contributes to this?) It also states that providing balanced intake charges to the intake valves is critical for maximum performance. If the 2 pot intake you’re using or plan on using has fairly equal length runners this should minimize this problem.

My experience in problem solving suggests that differences create problems so if I look at differences between the Cad and the Merc I may see something unique from one to the other. The differences I see are:
1. More cu/in in the Cad
2. Larger diameter pistons in the Cad (3-1/2” vs. 3-3/16”)
3. Longer stroke in Cad (4-1/2” vs. 4”)
4. Heavier crank in the Cad
5. Heavier flywheel i n the Cad
6. Reduced and unequal exhaust passages in the Ford/Merc
7. Longer block length in the Cad
<O</O
I have a gut feeling that rotating weight can affect torque by robbing horsepower.

The rotating mass of the Cad crank, flywheel and clutch assembly is much greater than the Merc, so lightening some of each, on the Cad, may help as long as balance is maintained. Getting the heavier mass moving and keeping it rotating requires more horsepower and resultant loss of torque at a given RPM.

I made two new graphs in Excel and have included them with this post; one comparing the torque values of the Cad and the Merc, the second comparing the HP values of the Cad and the Merc. Note that the Merc Torque curve is much flatter than the Cad torque curve.

Hope this creates some discussion on here. Graph is attached as a PDF.
Jim Leis
AKA Blown49
<O</O
>>
>><O</O

 

Some eye candy for you Cad Flat lovers compliments of HAMBer Dabirdguy's web site:

http://www.glennsplace.com/new_page_4.htm

 

Jim, that's good stuff!

Keep it coming!

 

Hi all,
Jim (Blown49) turned me on to this thread.

I regret selling my flattie now. As usual, I'm outta sync...LOL.

I still have 2 stock intakes, a carb with a rebuild kit, and a handful of stockexhaust manifolds if anyone needs them.

Whiskey Runner:
Your hearse, was that the one that was in Middle Eastern Indiana?
A guy there had both a Hearse and a limo for sale about 3 years for $400 total. I wish I had a place to put them,...LOL

Keep up the good work,
Glenn

 

Thought I'd show the direction I'm going with this build.

This is the dizzy I'm going to run, converted to remote hei.

Heads are done, and I'll post pics within the week. I've got some pretty trick, custom one-off parts I'll be posting, so let me know what you think.

 

This thread has been pretty dead, but I thought I'd update It.

Here is the finished tri-power, with coating. Not perfect, but now I know what kind of finish the metal needs for the coating.

My heads are done, and I'll post pics this weekend.

Dual plug, two piece heads.

Anyone else have anything new?

 

Buddy,
That intake looks cool with the coating on it, What does it weigh?
Can't wait to see the heads, Did the others ship to the buyer already?
No more sets left from that last run of 10, The next run will be on an pre-order basis. may not be making some anytime soon unless poeple step up .

 

Kevin,

The heads are on their way to Brisbane! The intake isn't as light as I would like wheighing in at 28lbs. The Burrell was far lighter, and better looking. With the availabilty of solid lifters, I was after cfm's for power. This accomplishes that.

As for the heads, The Cyclones are what I would recommend to people. Lightweight, added compression, and very, very cool looking! I decided on milled, dual plug heads for a few different reasons: I didn't want the extra compression, and I could not bring myself to take material off to drop the compression. With the milled heads, I could increase the water passages, for more flow and increased cooling capabilities.

And honestly, I'm building my dream car, and I wanted it to stand outfrom even other Caddy flatheads. Therefore, the dual plug heads.

The more I mess with this engine, the more captivated I am with it. Aaron Von Mindon has the ultimate Caddy flathead, and I wasn't going to try and match that. I am, however, going to try and build a more modern 'ultimate' type flathead, so I will not be using the tri-power.

After I pick the heads up on Wedensday, I'll post pics. In a couple of weeks, I'll post pics of the intake I'll be running.

So here is wkere everyone gets to put their .02 in, and point out what a waste of time and $, and how I could have had a hemi!

 

Shit! I want to see this.

 

Haha!

Shit as in "no way", or as in "I gotta see this"?

 

Take it any way you want. Just keep the cooool pics coming.