Mechanical idiot needs to tap the collective knowledge of the H.A.M.B.

Hey folks,

Sorry for the borderline retarded question, but I am having some trouble that I thought some of the great minds on this forum could possibly help me with. I'm a young guy who has never really had much of a chance to work on cars as much as I would have liked in my life, so I am kind of an idiot and need to learn things the hard way...or ask advice from smart guys!

I just bought a 29 Model A from my late father's estate. It is not quite "traditional" like I would prefer, but there is a certain sentimental value I have placed on it, and I plan on having a good time transforming it into something more my style. Anyway, car has sat in a garage for somewhere between 2-5 years. It has a 70's era SBC (3970010 block). Auto trans which is mysteriously missing a cover over the flywheel and torque converter (is this common? any idea why this would have been removed?). No idea if it was prepped to sit. There was no gas in the tank, and the oil is DIRTY. Efforts were made last weekend to start it up, but I failed. Found a bad starter, replaced it. My problem is is that I cannot get the new starter to turn the engine over. The engine is not seized, but it does seem hard to turn over. I have nothing to base how hard it was to turn over on, as I am not exactly experienced in turning motors over by hand (let's just say I had to put some weight behind the wrench to turn it). I pulled the plugs and blasted some marvel mystery oil in the cylinders and it got a little better, but the starter still hits the flywheel and stops. I have prepped the grounding points on the block and the frame, and still nothing. Does this sound like some kind of electrical/ignition problem? Is there a point in the ignition set-up that could be weak or not deleivering enough power to the starter when it is under a load? Or could my engine be shot in some way? I don't know what to check for or how to go about doing it at this point.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

P.S. Sorry in advance if I have corrupted any unwritten posting laws that I have yet to discover.

 

First things first. what voltage battery are you using?


traderjack

 

12v!

 

Prime the oil pump. I know its more work, but there is no oil in the bearings and sitting that long,,,,, well, it will help save the motor.

 

Check the grounds again.
Did the old starter have any shims between the starter and the block?
Leave the plugs out while you are trying to loosen the engine up and build some oil pressure upon the bearings.
How long has it been since the engine was last ran?

 

I feel like I've been over the grounding points a million times as that is the only thing I could think of. Old starter did NOT have shims. I did play around with the shimming in an effort to make sure there was no extra resistance that was caused by a tight mesh, but every combo I tried did not help at all. I know its been a minimum two years since it has ran. It could have been sitting longer than that, but I just don't know.

 

Before you pull the distributor to prime the oil pump, get an experienced person to help you so that the distributor will be put back in correctly so that the engine will be "in time".

 

How many complete turns by hand have you done on it, with the plugs out it should turn easy.Maybe one of the local hambers will see this and lend a hand or a fresh idea.

 

I agree with the above...remove all the spark plugs and the motor should turn over quite easily...with a socket and ratchet on the crank bolt.

If the motor spins easily then try your starter and see what happens, this will tell you what the problem might be.

If it spins easily "no problem".

If it hits the fly wheel/flex plate and stops or won't crank over quickly then you have problems with A: Power to starter or grounds, or B: New starter is a POS.

Is it an Auto or manual tranny? Auto: is it in park/neutral? Manual: is it out of gear?

 

With the plugs out it should turn pretty easy.

my guess would be that without plugs it should turn with about 25 foot pounds or less of torque. (with torque wrench)

If it takes more than this, oil the cylinders really well and work the engine carefully back and forth till things get easier. Take your time and be GENEROUS with the mmo.

 

Also pull the valve covers and make sure all valves are free when turning the engine, a little oil sprayed in the springs on the stems can't hurt.

 

Thanks guys. It definitely isn't easy to turn over with the plugs out. I have mostly been turning it over by putting my foot on the exposed flywheel (like I mentioned, it is missing a cover for some odd reason). I have turned it over about 10 times or so I would say. It is an automatic that is in park.

So any ideas on what would cause an engine to be tight with no plugs?

 

Just a thought. Maybe its the tranny thats causing it to turn hard. And don't worry about the missing flywheel cover. Its to big deal.

 

A few things come to mind.
1. What accessories are connected to the belt that goes around the crank? The belt should go to a water pump. altenator or generator, maybe a power steering pump and or air conditioner pump. I would loosen all the belts and see if this helps to free the engine any. You could have a bad water pump or another accessory on the belt.
2. If that doesn't help, jack the rear wheels off the ground (block the front wheels so the car doesn't roll) and put the trans in neutral and try turning it over. This will eliminate a trans problem
3. If none of these helps you may have an internal problem in the engine.
Do you know why the car was parked in the first place?

 

Sounds to me like it may have been hurt when it was parked. Possible spun bearing on the crank, or rusted cylinders from sitting too long. Any indication of metal in the dirty oil when you drained it?
Either way, I think the engine needs to come out for an overhaul or replacement.

 

The belt drives just a water pump and an alternator. My dad died 2 years ago so that's why I'm sure it hasn't been ran since then. I think it was parked before that though because he had a '34 he primarily used. I wasn't very close to him, so I don't have much background info on the car.

The oil was dirty, but it was pure liquid. No signs of grit or metal.

 

When you say the starter "hits" the flywheel it stops....are you getting engagement between the teeth on the flexplate and the gear inside the nosecone of the starter? SBC use 2 diiferent flexplates and you have to have the correct starter.

The "010" block by the way is a good motor....4" bore, could be a 327 or a 350....and if the numbers stamped on the front passenger side pad say "DZ" you have the 302 aka the Holy Grail of the Camaro guys (not to mention a few non-Camaro guys)

And another thing, you pulled the starter, checked the grounds etc....doesn't sound like you give yourself enough credit. I hereby change your status from "Mechanical Idiot" to "Challenged" like alot of guys/gals here.

 

The grounding is only half the circuit. The other half is the positive lead. If its undersized, corroded or otherwise messed up the starter will also act like you are saying. Clean the battery terminals, then check the voltage at the at the starter when it is trying to start. It shouldn't be below 9 volts or so.

 

I feel safe in saying it aint a starter issue at all.

The motor is stuck. Could be a tranny issue but I think the odds of this are very very slim.

The flywheel cover is off because someone never got around to putting it back on OR it came off because the engine was stuck and someone was tryiing to turn the engine.

If a piston is sticking, you should be able to feel a difference in effort required to turn the engine as the piston "rolls" over tdc and bdc. (It will get easier to move the crankshaft when the piston is at the VERY top and VERY bottom of it's travel due to increased leverage (and/or per se) Less piston movement per degree of rotation.

A sticking rod or main will USUALLY be more consistent in its increased friction.

Regardless, the engine needs to come apart for inspection...

 

Although I have never personally tried this "Interesting" method of turning over a motor. I would have to say that if your foot gets enough traction to turn over the motor this way it isn't all that tight.
What happens when you use a 1/2 drive socket and a 12" ratchet to try and turn it over? I think that would give most of us a better indication of how hard it really is.

 

Thanks again for all the idea-sparking responses guys! The starter is engaging the flexplate, but here is the thing: it STAYS engaged until I manually spin the flexplate. My first thought was that it was normal, as when the engine would normally fire, the starter gear would pop back into its protective home. But maybe I guess wrong on how that mechanism works? I swear I tried aligning that sucker 10 different ways with the same result. It is the exact same kind of starter that I pulled out of it, and I am assuming the one that was in there started the car correctly for many years (by the looks of it).

When I use a socket wrench to turn the engine over, I have to put some strength behind it. Not enough to sprain a muscle, but I definitely can't just casually pull on it and turn it with my left hand or anything. Sorry, I wish I had a torque wrench so I could give you guys some better specifications!

 

loosen the fan belts too.
Sometimes a locked up alternator prevents the engine from turning

 

We need NUMBERS.

Take the starter cable off, and measure voltage from the lead on the end of it, to the engine block, and let us know the reading. Be sure the contacts are clean and the cable is in good shape with no breaks or burns before putting it back together.

 

With the plugs out and a good hot battery it should spin like no tomorrow. Most part houses can check out a starter under load-I suggest you take the starter back for a bench test then check battery voltage or have it load tested at your parts house also. With this information you will get better advise. Usualy with a 12 inch long 1/2 inch drive breaker bar and socket you should be able to turn the motor over relative easy. Spraying a little WD40 or any type thin lubricant in the cylinders will also help. Pre lubing the motor will help but your limited experience will require you to get some knowledgeable person to assist you.

 

jeeze we got a guy telling you to remove the motor and we don't even know if the battery is any good. is this the old battery that was in the car sitting idle for the past 2 years?? if so it could very well be shot

as stated check voltage with a meter. start at the battery , go to the starter, then the key. good battery ought to have 12.5 volts or so.

jump the starter off the car and see if it will spin by itself

spinning the motor with the bolt in the crank and an extension bar or big socket should take a little effort... it's not like you are going to spin it like the wheel on your bicycle. it's kind of hard to measure what resistance you are feeling over the internet.

 

If the starter is not dis-engaging 1. it is not adjusted correctly (binding problem), or 2. it does not have enough power (low battery), or 3. you have a mismatch in the starter and flywheel (ie: wrong starter incorrect amount of teeth), or 4. the spring in the starter solenoid is bad or missing (did you put it back in when you changed the starter?). Check the starter off of the car.
My bet is it is not adjusted correctly and is binding up in at a bad angle and then can't turn, or you have the wrong starter (most all of them mount up the same it can be hard to tell). Make sure your battery is fully charged as well and will hold a load, as that also can make it just go clunk when you try to start it (but it should then disengage, so still a binding problem). As for taking more power to turn it over it could mean just a higher compression engine (a good thing for some go fast guys, like me who can pass anything but a gas station). But long before I would take it out and open it up, I would let a good mechanic look at it as is, and see what he could do with it (much cheaper than an unneeded overhaul, experience pays great rewards, if you don't have the experience needed, it is ok to pay for it).

 

There has got to be somebody near to you that can help, getting help over the internet is like phone sex: it'll do the job, but it just isn't the same thing. You could have any number of things going on and we won't know because we can't SEE what you've got going on.

Don't get excited and start tearing things down yet, get someone to put eyes on it with you, it could be really simple. Good luck bubba

 

I am using what I "think" is a good battery from another vehicle. It was measuring 13 volts at the starter when the ignition was applied, at any rate. I also tried jumping the starter and by-passing the ignition with no luck. I am getting a new battery because I need one for the car anyway, and I will also be double and triple checking grounds, positives, and starter alignment tonight hopefully! I am also going to try to get a heavy duty starter, not some "rebuilt in mexico" special from XYZ auto. I will eventually pull the engine, but I would like to get it running for the summer if at all possible. I burned all the money I had acquiring the car, so engine work/and or an entire engine is not even close to possible right now. Hopefully I will have good news to report! Although the pessimist in me thinks the whole thing is probably shot...

 

Haha, yeah I know guys, I just feel like I need to give it a little more effort before I call in a mechanic. So I just want to feel out what experienced guys would do if they were in my situation. I'm starting to think I really need to make sure the starter is hitting correctly. I am going to continue on that path for now anyway.

 

Where do you live?