I always get a kick out of posts that feel obligated to insult the person asking a question. I read the article, and get the fact that it is intended to be controlled by a computer. This is a freakin hotrod! it's a 1938, has no computer, and will not have a computer. I'm simply trying to figure out how it can be made to work without all the bullshit. I also get the fact that it may not be the best choice for what I want to do. That aside, I still would like to know if there is a simple way to make this work. It's called hotrodding-get it?
It would be cool if you got it figured out. Over the years I've had a number of friends run mid to high 12's with their Lightings and that stock blower, with basically a pulley swap, tune, and other bolt-on's. For a truck that has to be over 4000 lbs, that's making some power. I drove a bolt-on L back in 2002 that was running 13.dohs and it hauled ass for a truck.
actually the part about being computer controlled is incorrect in regards to ford applications. the computer DOES NOT actuate the recirc valve on a normal basis. there is a tiny vacuum reservoir that opens when the ecu detects that either the engine has overheated or the intercooler coolant has overheated. i know this first hand because i worked with the lead svt engineer, bill woebkenberg, during the development of one of water/methanol injection safety systems i worked on. if you look at any of the ford terminator motors you'll see that there is a tee in the vacuum line. one side goes after the tb but before the blower and the other goes to a solenoid that is controlled by the ecu to open up and provide vacuum in the event there is a PROBLEM.
You know, looking at this picture of the E-Force from Edelbock it seems the bypass valve is connected to a plate between the carb and the supercharger.
Weren't these things only set up to produce about 8 lbs. of boost? The pulley was pressed on and I never found out if they even made an aftermarket on for them. I had one before that came off a warranty engine but I never got to try it out on anything.
Panic, Beef Stew, and everyone else, thank you. I think this can be done, but it appears that I can find a better choice. I'll probably just go with a 4-71, or a 144, and have an easier time of it. When blowers were first pulled off of diesels, to use on gas motors, i'll bet the same negativity towards their use was put forth. And now look where we are! These old caddie flatheads have very few aftermarket speed parts available. Therefore, when I, or other owners, want to do something that is easy for everyone else, we have to build our own parts. I don't pretend to know about supercharges, so I ask. Building a manifold, and everything else i'll need is not cheap, so I only want to do it once. I appreciate all the feedback, positive and negative.
Not an insult based on you as a person in anyway. Your study habbits, yea probably. It's called the HAMB - get it?
the only time the computer opens the bypass valve is when there's a problem ie the engine overheats or the intercooler coolant overheats. the bypass valve is not connected to a "vacuum switch". the vacuum line going into the bypass valve tees. one side of the tee goes to the throttle body. the other side of the tee goes to a solenoid. that solenoid is controlled by the computer. THE ONLY TIME THE SOLENOID OPENS IS WHEN THE ECU DETECTS A PROLBEM IE THE ENGINE OVERHEATS OR THE INTERCOOLER COOLANT OVERHEATS. do you understand me now? the computer DOES NOT control the bypass valve during normal operations ie any time there is not a problem. it's controlled by regular old vacuum. like i said, i worked with the head engineer from svt. i also happened to have had a prototype gt-500 in my shop so yes, i witnessed this and tested this many many times. the little write up you keep referring to is incorrect. i know it's off of panic's site and if he sees this and wants to discuss this further with me he can send me a pm and i'd be more than happy to explain again how the ecu does not control the bypass valve.
, Beef Stew, Thanks for the clarification! This advice by Panic, then, would be correct based on how you say it operates. So even if this isn't the best choice, with a 4bbl carb it is a cheap alternative.
btw there is no vacuum present during boost so where does this magic vacuum come from? oh the vacuum reservoir you say? well the vacuum "reservoir" is nothing more than a very small cylinder. it's about .5" in diameter and 3" long. it doesn't even provide enough vacuum to fully open the bypass valve. to the op, if you take a close look at your bypass valve you'll see that there is actually a second port on the other side of the valve. in stock configuration this port is referenced to atomospheric pressure ahead of the throttle body. what i was able to do is splice in a solenoid that is boost referenced and when there is a problem my water/methanol injection system can actuate the solenoid sending boost to the bottome side of the diaphragm and force open the bypass valve which relieves almost all the boost pressure. also to the op, you can use that blower without a problem. don't let some uninformed guy who found incorrect info on the INTERNET deter you from doing something with this blower. it's a prefectly good blower that'll do exactly what you're looking to do.
controller problem fixed..no computer required...go with a mechanical boost controller from turboX i don't have a link but they are 75 bucks..i own one..it has ..one vacuum line from the compressor side..one vacuum to the waste gate.....nothing to it...fully adjustable to how you want the boost to bleed off...check with the maker of the blower you might want to get a blow off valve to relieve the boost when you close the throttle
31vicky, what the info online says about the patent and how it actually works in reality maybe a bit different when you look at the real world application. the valve in question only creates an opening between the inlet to the blower and the intake manifold under the blower. the valve does not close off the inlet to the blower. this means the blower is still drawing in air, compressing it, and delivering it to intake manifold. now, since the valve is open the compressed air exiting the blower essentially sees a massive leak and following the rule that pressure differentials seek to equalize, the pressurized air charge is immediately vented from the intake manifold and back in the area ahead of the compressor. this is why i kept referring to the valve as a recirc valve and not a bypass valve. the valve does not bypass the compressor completely. as for the vacuum reservoir, if you pop the hood on any ford car/truck with the terminator 4.6/5.4 blower motor and chase the vacuum line coming from the actuator you'll find the reservoir. and i can prove it exists: simple turn the igntion on without starting the car and you'll see the valve open. the car isn't running yet so there isn't any vacuum so where does it come from? the reservoir. and you're correct, it doesn't really work and that's exactly what the guys at svt told me. that's why they changed the way it was setup on the gt-500. when there is measureable boost in the intake manifold the vacuum between the blower and the throttle body is not sufficient enough to open the valve thus the need for a reservoir. they actually changed the system so that boost is applied to the bottom side of the actuator which can force open the valve and dump the boost. btw my name is nate.
Ok, i think the operation is pretty well understood. Thank you. I'm not concerned about running this wet, but would like to hear opinions on application. Should i go with this one, or spend 3-4 times more for a 4-71, or 142-144 setup?
not to beat a dead horse but to further my point about the valve not being controlled by the ecu, consider all the retrofit systems they offer. the blowers bolt on to cars and trucks that never had the provision physically or electronically to control the function of a recirc valve. they don't include any kind of special harness that splices into the existing harness and ecu to control the valve. the reasoning being is that the valve is controlled by vacuum alone. to the op, if you already have the blower why not use it? i'm confident that you'll be able to use it and see good performance. it was also mentioned that this blower might only make 7-8 psi of boost. the pully is interchangeable and it's very common for these blower to make 13-17 psi of boost. keep in mind that these blowers aren't the most efficient and intake air temps will increase significantly. running atomized gas through them should really help cool them down.
You don't need a BOV with a draw through. When the throttle closes, airflow stops, and therefore the boost stops. I've got the same setup on an OT civic. That valve lets air bypass the blower under light load, based on manifold vaccum, not a computer, that black thing is the switch. Mash the pedal, instant boost, just like any other roots setup. What has been said before about the rotors having a coating may be true, depends on the specific blower. If they are coated, using it as a draw through WILL damage the blower. The hole in the back is the inlet, not the outlet. Rear inlet blowers tend to be more efficient, something to do with the way the air moves past the rotors. Just my .02 but it would look kind of goofy on a caddy flathead. Go with a 4-71.
There is absolutely no problem running them wet.As stated earlier Magnuson (Eaton Reman source) uses an M112 for their flathead application. They also use M122's for their and Edelbrock's hot rod packages.The valve in question is simply a by pass valve. It's function is to reduce parasitic loss. When cruising it takes less than 1 H.P. to turn the supercharger. This valve is simply connected to manifold vacuum. The supercharger will function without it. But why not use it if you have it? Do not use any Rootes style blower as blow through. Constant pressure blowers will blowup the pressure box and make for a very nasty situation. As to pressure if using a big enough Eaton you can get any boost you want. An M90 on 3.8 Pontiacs can be jacked up to at least 22 lbs. with pulley changes. Our 2.3 Ford/Volvo project will be 30 lb. Any thing more than about 10 lb. requires alcohol or intercoolng due to heat buildup causing detonation, otherwise timing will need to be backed off to the point where the boost has little or no benefit.Running wet is possible with all of the Eaton/Magnuson's, But both will tell you that for maximum performance they should be run dry. That being because the fuel going through takes up space that could be used for air.That being said My '58 Chevy pickup weighs 3400 lbs. and runs 12.70s on street tires. With a blown (12 lbs.) injected (TBI) 292 six cylinder running wet. We have used these blowers extensivly for years with no problems wet or dry. Gemini EFI
I have the same Lightning blower sitting in my garage. Does yours say Ford or SVT on the front? The later ones like mine say SVT. You can get smaller and larger pulleys for it including a quick change hub. The teflon coating does have a tendency to flake off from the rotors.
This. I have a maggie on an LS1 and it has a vacuum operated bypass to reduce parasitic drag. All it uses is vacuum. Nothing else. However. That actuator was set at the factory and the instructions mention very explicitly to leave it alone when installing and manhandling the blower. So, you can hook it up to vacuum and it oughta work, as long as you can adjust it so that it actually operates under low load conditions. You'll most likely have the benefit of watching the sucker as you drive down the street, so you've got that going for ya.
LOL I was looking at a completed blower auction on Ebay and realized you were the one who bought it, exact same picture LOL. You have a 1999-2000 blower that says Eaton on it right.
Lol! That's funny! No, I didn't buy it. I work 700 miles from home, two weeks on, and two off. I was at work, so i could'nt take a pic of mine, so i "borrowed" that pic, because it looks the same as mine.
Yes I know this is an older thread, but I also have an interest in the eaton blowers and their use on flatheads. My question is about using one on a 226 six cylinder continental. It seems there would be plenty of room to mount one and it would look like a pretty clean application. Since the McCulloch superchargers are just out of sight money-wise the Eaton as an option looks much more doable to me. I have acquired two '51 Kaisers both with 3 speed manual transmissions, (one with overdrive). The stock flathead six only puts out 140hp and this is a 3400# car! I'm thinking that making the old six breath better would really help this car move a bit better and maybe not get run over so easily. My question would which Eaton model would be best to look for? Any suggestions as to how to configure the blower itself, the carburetor placement and whether or not to do this as a blow-through or not? Just doing some keyboard speculating ... Dan Stevens dba, Steelsmith
Dan, I'd personally stay away from a blow through setup. That is still a Roots type positive displacement supercharger, and has the potential to hold the throttle wide open regardless of what you do with the pedal! It's been awhile, but I do have some experience with these little blowers. This was 1996... Find a nice period sidedraft, or elbow adaptor for a downdraft. You'll need a much larger plenum area than what's on the stock manifold.
uuhhh negative, fuel does not go through it on an efi app, as the injectors are in the manifold after the sc
Call these guys. They are the only authorized outlet for Eaton SC'ers and they can give you the straight story about them. They are authoried to reman. them as well by Eaton. http://www.magnacharger.com/links.htm I have two M90's that will be used on Ford bangers. I'm thinking that the one that you have may be a M90. The M90 is also on my 3.8 Buick V6 (1999 Regal) and it works great. I usually only bring it into play to pass slower vehicles. While touring out on the open road I set the cruise and the SC operates in vacuum and my milage doesn't suffer. If I want the SC all it takes is the foot on the floor and you get immediate response. One of the best set ups I've ever had on a vehicle. I'm dissapointed that Buick abandoned the Eaton as well as the 3.8. A great combination. I was able to get 31mpg on the open road with it. It only gets 29mpg now that it has approx. 130k on it. I'm going to miss it when we purchase a new vehicle in the near future.
Exwestracer, thanks for the response. As to model/size for a 226 flathead? Is the M90 enough CFM? or would the M120 be a better fit? It's not like that old flattie is ever going to run very high RPM's ... You mentioned, it would need a larger plenum to operate efficiently? How is the size determined and are the intake runners a part of that equation? I would think, (and this is just me thinking, which can be really dangerous) a bigger plenum volume-wise, would have to be limited depth-wise to keep the charge tumbling, is that a correct/accurate assumption? If that is so, is there a limit to how close/short the plenum can be made before other issues arise? Are any of the above mentioned dimensions influenced by the actual intake port dimensions on the engine? (Again just me thinkin'), but would you think that a plenum laid over on it's side (to also side-mount the blower) and short direct runners to the intake ports would there need to be any extra room figured into this, for turbulence/well mixed charge other than the room needed to actually enable mechanical installation? I'm just not well versed in blower mechanics and how it effects airflow/mixing of the charge when using a blower. Any relevant input regarding my particular application would be very helpful. Do please limit general blower information that I (or anyone else) can look up. I find that I can be overwhelmed with 'general' information and since this is not an area of any siginificant experience for me, I can easily be mislead by too much general information that doesn't apply. I have some reference information concerning blowers that I will have to refresh myself with, but I don't think it deals with anything like a modern Eaton mounted to an old flathead six cylinder ... Thanks for being willing to share your experience. Dan Stevens dba, Steelsmith
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