Questions for body shop owners

I have been doing body work and paint for a while now and have done more than a few side jobs also. I have an opportunity to get into a shop on my own and might take up the offer. It would be about 4 or 5 guys renting an old body shop, I would be the only one doing body work. The other guys will be doing mostly squad car setups, remote starts audio, etc., and there is going to be some extra room in the shop. Rent would be pretty cheap and I know there is plenty of work for me to do. I would have 3 stalls on one end of the shop that will be closed off with curtain walls, one will be a booth. My questions are: what do I need to do about the epa and what not? I will be painting probably 1-2 cars per month and don't want to be doing anything illegal. I'm sure I will need a hazardous waste permit as well, how do I go about getting all of these different permits? What else am I missing, what haven't I thought of? Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

Body shop owner here.Let me give you some free advise....and remember this is just my 0.02.Here goes.......

The first problem I see is renting a shop with others.

When I first went into business for my self,I had a "room mate".It sucked.The help I got with the rent didn't justify the problems with having a "partner".Security was all ways a worry.Also the "borrowing" of supply's all ways seemed to be one sided,and most of the time stuff never got returned.It came close to ruining a good friendship.

Second problem.......

If you ever get caught painting,be it by the fire department,or the EPA,you had better have a huge bank account.Those fines could add up to hundreds of thousands of dollars.The way around that is to paint at night(which I did for a long time)The reason that sucks is because you will never have a life if you have to work all night.

Third problem..........

You will have to worry about others work contaminating your work.(silicone type stuff)

Other than that I say go for it!LOL

 

I would definitely say you should contact the local fire department and find out what their requirements are and make sure that the shop is up to current standards. A lot of old shops are not and it can be very expensive to get them up to snuff when dealing with volitle chemicals like paint.

 

It doesnt really sound like itd be worth the hassle for only 2 cars a month, id say keep it where ever you have it now . It can be a huge headache.

 

I know here any paint shop now has to have a paint booth with regulated ventilation and has to be fully approved by the city and fire dept before anything is done and it isnt cheap

 

Once you leave home, Grasshopper, the governments of city, county, state and nation are standing in line to take your money for permits, fees, and taxes.
As long as you are "invisible" at home, and none of your neighbors rat you out, all the money is yours.
Think about it.

 

Yup - cheapest paint job outside of Maaco is about $2g's where I live. Even Maaco is wanting about $1k now.

 

I think that's the way it is just about everywhere. I know for a long time the loop hole here was you could do a panel without a booth, but not a whole car. They closed that one. The inspections process will also take into consideration what the other guys are doing as well.

 

Do you enjoy doing paperwork? There is a lot of record keeping involved , not only with makeing sure you make a profit, and stay out of trouble paying your taxes, but conforming with zoneing, complying with the E.P.A. and so on. Do you have some savings? You can't have too much money if you are gonna be self employed ! What about insurance? Imagine with all these other people floating thru and checking out your tools ,the cars you have in progress and leaving you liable when the shop burns or is broken into. How are you going to deal with the guys who don't want to pay and bad mouth your work? Do have policies and procedures to deal with how the shop will be run. I don't want to rain on yer parade but if you have to ask then I sggest you get more experience and do things in an orderly manner. Talk to an accountant or other business professional and ask him/ her what is needed to get your venture off the ground, be profitable and stay out of trouble and then decide if the risk is worth it. Just my $.02 worth

 

I don't own a body shop but I just went to 1 day yesterday and those 'booths' they use look like M-O-N-E-Y.

My 2 cents, I like the above idea to paint at night, and just DONT GET CAUGHT.

 

Go to the local library and do some research. 1-2 cars a month is nothing. Hell, 30 cars a month is low. Most busy shops do that in a week. What you need to look for is the regs regarding a "spraying and detailing room" per the nat'l BOCA codes. At 1-2 cars a month you're painting parts, not whole cars...EVEN IF YOU ARE! The body is a PART of the car, the fender, the door, you get the idea. The town I was in was not only hard on this gig but crooked as well. They wanted a $500 fee just to look at what I was wanting to do. The other hook to all of this is the liability of the city for letting you do your thing. It's their prime motivation to stay "off the hook" in a manner of speaking. I too don't like the idea of sharing space. Makes things tough to deal with. Changes people including YOURSELF. I'll advise you to stay as far away from the EPA as you possibly can. Their guidlines are within the city codes and BOCA codes. Don't wake that sleeping dog. There's many ways to dispose of paint products and dumping solvents and paint can be very expensive. Look up the companies that do the pickup and talk to them. They handle the paperwork. You don't need to get involved at the FEDERAL LEVEL, and if you contact the EPA you'll do just that. The best thing about being your own boss is that you make your own hours. The worst thing about being your own boss is that you make your own hours. Tread softly, don't worry about things that don't concern you, focus on all of the general expenses you'll have, and don't be afraid to charge a fair rate for what you do. You're not obliged to make sure someone has a perfect car at your expense, just to give them every dollar's worth they paid for. Sounds cold and shitty, I know, but it's the truth. Your living depends on it. Save the gifts for those who really count. And once again, go to your local library and look up the local codes. You'll find loopholes from hell that will get you started. A typical used booth these days is over $10K and you install it. A spraying and detailing room can be built for less than 1/2 of the expense of a booth and still give you great conditions to work in. Good luck. It might just be worth your while.



I'll add also that the average spray booth is roughly 1 million BTUs which translates into a considerable sum of $$$

 

There are a lot of new EPA regulations for places that paint two or more cars per year(?) or the equivalent of that in parts, plus there can be local restrictions. Check for your area .

 

I would try and find out what Mn and town requires for shop licensing. Usually, a state license involves EPA, Sales Tax collection, Business license from the village or city, proof of adequate garage keepers insurance, maybe even fire supression (sprinklers) or alarm wired to fire department (monthly fee), and possibly more stuff. Usually a new business needs to meet "current" ADA statutes. So, if the building could need to be updated with ramps, signs, special fixtures, etc.

Multiple business operations may mean multiple business license applications. As a general rule, you really need to crank out some work to justify the hoops needed to be jumped through. Not trying to discourage you, but these are just a few things that I faced. There are more,...believe me. Stu

 

Unless ya got lot'sa CASH to back ya up.
Don't Do IT !!!!!!!
Owned a shop for over 40 years and sold out 7 years ago and never looked back.
Too many headaches.

 

sounds like your new to dealing with customers too. that is also a huge pain in the ass. car people are very fussy about there rides and just 1 unhappy customer can be a great hassel. im lucky that in my job, im always right! but the normal way of thinking is that the customer is always right. good luck.

 

Keep it small. No partners. Lay low, "the man" can and will tax you to death.
Speaking from experience.

 

Thanks for all of the advice everyone, I am not new to dealing with customers, I have managed a few shops. I will be the only guy in my business, I will operate under a DBA as I have in the past. I will only do restorations and custom paint, no collision, so I won't be painting as often as a high volume shop. The shop has a semi downdraft booth in it now, it was a body shop until about 6 months ago. I am mainly looking for advice on the environmental issues associated with the painting. I guess that with the volume I will have, painting at night is an option that would work out fine. I will see if I can find out any info at the library. The price of the rent is what would make this a good deal, lets just say that if I charged $50/hr. it would only take 10 hours of work to cover rent and utilities.

 

I too have wondered about the details of going legit. I think I'd rather not draw any attention to myself from the EPA/State. The way things are now are well enough.

Is anyone forcing you to go legit with the shop? Can you just rent it and do your thing at night? I find that no matter what I usually end up spraying at night except for small parts, etc. And with only doing a handful of cars a year, it ends up not making a huge difference in my life.

 

I don't own a shop. I'm retired, but was shop foreman in 4 different shops over the years. Aircraft, welding, food equipment, etc.
If I was doing it, I would not do any painting. There's no money in painting, competition is stiff, too many people cheating on the EPA/FIRE rules to make it worthwhile, they can all underbid you. I would make contact with a couple of paint shops and work them into any bidding with the car owner that you contract repairs with. Make that understood, in writing on the repair order. Close out the work order and transfer the job to the owner with your recommendations where they might get the paint done.

There is money in the prep work, up to painting. That's the labor killer anyhow. After the car is ready for it's first coat of primer, most shops can finish it off for around five/six hundred on a standard paint job.

Me? I would even take the car somewhere and shoot the first coat of primer, out of the shop. Any turds, bugs, etc go with the first block sanding anyhow. There's a local shop here that does/welcomes the job where all they have to do is skuff and paint. They get $399 for a skuff and paint and make money at it because it only takes them a half a day, including the bake oven.

 

dont ask and dont tell
used to spray cars for $30 25 year ago put the exh fan in door and spray noone other than your friends need to know what you is doing keep a low profile and dont run competetion against other legitamate shops

remember county comissioners trying to rezone my parents farm when i put a hurt on other shops they leaned on me, had a low overhead too

 

The truth if it was ever told! Fly under the radar any way you can 'cause BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU!

 

I would also try to check without being too obvious about the codes in your area associated with the paint booth. If you already have a booth and you try to get a license the booth will have to be up to code if you are required to have any kind of inspections before you can get a license. It doesn't matter if you plan on using it or not. I found all this out the hard way. Apparently in some areas the building is not grandfathered in to anything. In my area a shop could have been a body shop for 50 years and never even had a booth and it not be a problem, but let a new owner take over and everything has to be up to current code.

 

Depending on the volume of work you plan on putting out, and of course MN and local law/ordinance and if you already have a customer base, don't hang up a shingle and run as a hobby shop, easier to fly under the radar that way

If your going to open as a buisiness, start with the liscence (i can never spell that right), get your EIN # and your state rebuilder/repairer papers, info for those should be availible through your secratary of state. Record keeping is a must not only for the inspectors and what not but to see if you are really making any $$$

aside from those talk to some of the suppliers that you have a relationship with, they should have some info on hazmat and epa since they are dealing with them as well.
Check the trade mags (bodyshop buissiness, fender bender etc.) and their websites for info specific to your area

If your working at a shop now, take a look at what is going on there as far as inspections, permits, waste disposal

Just my $.02

 

Any thoughts about the possibility you may end up paying the rent for the whole shop as the other guys drop out due to future issues ?
I know this can happen.

 

Rusty..Had shop near litch. for 24 years. Closed up last spring, got tired of the bullshit involved with the insurance industry. I now do some work out of my garage, keep a low profile as it's now zoned residental. When I closed EPA was not a problem in outstate MN. it depends on how large a generator of solid waist you are. The last 15 gallon barrell of waste product i sent in cost me 225.00, that was 3 years ago before the generator amounts changed in MN. Is the shop in Litch. area or metro. The regulations in metro are a lot tighter. Check with a couple shops in Litch and see what they are doing for EPA, and what their work load is, most shops in this area are SLOW.

 

What I would like to do is start out with the customers I already have, maybe I could fly under the radar for a while. Eventually I would like to advertise a little, put up a sign, grow and maybe hire a few employees, buy or build a better shop. I need to start out somewhere and this just might be the opportunity. These days it is just not possible for a body man to save up the initial investment to buy or rent a shop, start out with a few employees, and jump through all of the hoops that go along with the hazardous materials. Bill, could you be so kind to let me know what you are currently doing? You seem to do more than a few side jobs, does it pay off? Do you just keep a low profile and hope you don't get caught?

 

What town were you in? I work in litch. right now and we kind of get by under the radar, never been inspected, do not have the waste disposed of, we take all old thinner and I either use it to burn trash at home or it gets placed in the booth behind the exhaust filters The old paint gets poured into a rubbermaid container and when it is rock hard and dry it gets tossed in the trash. I would ask the owner for some advice but he will not be very supportive of me wanting to go on my own. I am trying to keep quiet around town so he doesn't have a clue. The shop would be in Hutchinson, maybe this is your old shop? It sounds like you are the man who may have most of the answers I need. If you are who I think you are than maybe I should just come work for you The reason I want to go on my own is that I am having nothing but problems where I am at now. There is NO work around here, or willmar, or st. cloud, or anywhere. I am fine working for someone but there are some major tax and financial issues where I am now and unfortunately it has affected me and my pay. I have talked to a few of the other shop owners and they are both willing to send customers wanting restorations and custom paint my way as they do not want to do that kind of work.

 

Don't do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was in the biz for 10 years with one!!! bad partner,I cant even imagine multiple partners.It was like being in prizon,just without the cavity searches.I fully agree with this quote but if you have to do it,save your money and rent a small shop for yourself.This is all good advice but consider it all and do what you realy want to do.You will enjoy your life more if you at least try to follow your dreams rather than live your life the way everyone else tells you to live it.As bad as it all was I am glad I at least tried!Good Luck, Tom

 

Just to clarify, this will not be a partnership, I will be separate from the other business. I will be merely renting a portion of the shop, I am willing to take over the whole shop eventually if they decide to move. This is just a cheap way to get my foot in the door.

 

Rusty Not my old shop it's sittin empty except for a few bikes in storage, trying to figure out where their is a semi down draft sitting in Hutch, maybe in the east "theatre" area. If you have a customer base make sure you keep them if you can, where I am now is considered a "home" business, cannot have any employees in this type of business. What I do is mine and that's fine, no overhead and most is profit, thats a hell of a lot better than paying rent, business taxes and all the rest of the bullshit being in full scale business. Another thing to consider is the pending change to water based paints thats gonna happen in MN in a couple of years, most booth's will have to be fitted with hot air blowers, and that ain't cheap. If you can stay where you are for awhile and get "paid" consider yourself lucky, as you stated the work in this area is a little light right now. Most of the shops think it's good to have a week backlog, few years ago when it was good and all the "steering" wasn't going on in the collission industry and people had money to spend it wasn't unsual for my shop to be backed up for 2+ months but those day's are gone..at least in this area. The only thing I can see wrong with your "dream" shop is the partnership, or the other shared areas, it doesn't work.