Is today's oil killing our engines??

Today I was lookin thru the stuff we have at work, as the Byooik's due for an oil change. Bought some STP additive. It says right on the label it has the anti-wear additives, and specifically mentions ZDDP.


Go to a local Wal-Mart's automotive department and look at the STP for yourself, you'll see it.

 

OK so what additives are out there that replace the zinc and sulfur that we need? Is this GM EOS the stuff we need?

 

Depressing. I thought all this zinc talk was bunk. But it looks to be true. Let's have someone tell us the different additives we can buy at the local auto parts stores. I read STP offers one? Is there an additive that specifically says "zinc" on the label?

 

Same reason Im going hyd roller too in my Hemi - I think it will get worse over time with regards to emmissions regs and the EPA will be looking for "new" ways to reduce those emmissions..

Rat

 

Tractor supply has Traveler oil......15w40, rated CI4/SL. It's cheap($9/gal) & has the Ph & Zinc for old push rod motors.

As for STP as I understand it, The red bottle is the one that contains the good stuff...I think t's been taken of the market.


Don(Mech Engr)

 

Boy I must have missed this post also, definitely a good read and makes you think about what you put in your engine.

But it has been years since I have had a flat tappet cam in a motor, heck the last flat head I built was a roller set up.

 

A very well known early TBird restorer commissioned a study comparing the CJ Diesel oil (and the CI diesel) to oil back in the 70's as far as ZDDP. Both the old and new diesel had more ZDDP than the 70's oil. How long this will last is any bodys guess, but the CJ oil is ok.

A well respected engine builder on y-blocksforever says that any oil that has a 30 weight or more component to it has the old ZDDP specs, despite the SM rating. Therfore, a 10-30,10-40, 20-50 all has enough ZDDP.

 

(Sorry if this sounds familiar as I've posted it on another thread just recently regarding the best of today's oils for flathead engines. It is just as relevant for any flat-tappet motor including those with high performance non-roller cams. Please forgive me if you've read this before.)

Here's some info from the two manufacturers - Valvoline and Brad Penn - who seem to be dialed in to the needs of rodders with flat tappet engines who do not wish to convert to synthetic oil...for whatever reason.

My flathead is well used but still sound and would not take well to high detergent oil...too dirty inside. A low detergent oil will gradually remove the sludge, not kick it all loose at the same time. As has been pointed out, it's very easy to overwhelm the partial-flow remote oil filter systems on flathead Fords.

The other reason is that zinc deposits are stripped off the parts by high detergent oil, just like sludge deposits. So...in order to build up a protective layer of zinc you must use a low detergent-type oil. At least that's the way I understand the situation.

Here's some very interesting information on old cars and ZDDP:

From the Valvoline website: http://www.valvoline.com/racing/index.asp

Consumer Solutions ​

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There are high-zinc engine oils available to meet this need. It is important to note, however, that the entire additive package still needs to be balanced for best performance. For example, engine oil with a high zinc level but low detergent may not perform over a drain interval of 3,000 miles or longer. ​

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Valvoline offers two solutions to the zinc issue ​

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Valvoline Racing VR1: 75% higher zinc than SM engine oil with a balanced additive package designed to work in both racing and street-legal applications. This product will protect older style push-rod and flat tappet engines. Valvoline provides this product in both multi and mono viscosity grades: SAE 20W-50 (part vv211), straight SAE 50 (part vv235), SAE 10W-30 (part vv205), SAE 30(part vv223), SAE 40 (part vv229), and SAE 60 (part vv241)
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</DIR></DIR>[/FONT][/FONT]From the Brad Penn website: http://www.bradpennracing.com/default.asp

The Brad Penn<SUP>®</SUP> Penn Grade 1<SUP>®</SUP> High Performance Oils contain the higher level of anti-wear (ZDDP &#8211; zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) and enhanced film strength so critical to proper high performance engine protection. The Penn-Grade 1<SUP>®</SUP> oils &#8220;typical&#8221; 1,500 ppm Zinc (Zn) and 1340-1400 ppm Phosphorus (P) content provide the needed anti-wear protection to critical engine parts, such as piston/cylinder walls, roller cams under heavy valve spring pressure and especially those that employ a solid &#8220;flat tappet&#8221; type system. As important as the chemistry is to the Penn-Grade 1<SUP>®</SUP> oils, it is by no means the whole story. The unique base oil cut used to refine the Penn-Grade 1<SUP>®</SUP> High Performance Oils maintain a tremendous affinity to metal surfaces. This naturally occurring &#8220;metal wetting&#8221; characteristic enables the oil to stay put on your highly stressed engines and makes the Penn-Grade 1<SUP>®</SUP> High Performance Oil resist slinging for an extended period of time. Also, rest assured in knowing that the Penn-Grade 1<SUP>®</SUP> High Performance Oils are 100% Made in the USA.
The Brad Penn<SUP>®</SUP> Penn Grade 1<SUP>®</SUP> High Performance Oils contain the higher level of anti-wear (ZDDP &#8211; zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) and enhanced film strength so critical to proper high performance engine protection. The Penn-Grade 1<SUP>®</SUP> oils &#8220;typical&#8221; 1,500 ppm Zinc (Zn) and 1340-1400 ppm Phosphorus (P) content provide the needed anti-wear protection to critical engine parts, such as piston/cylinder walls, roller cams under heavy valve spring pressure and especially those that employ a solid &#8220;flat tappet&#8221; type system. As important as the chemistry is to the Penn-Grade 1<SUP>®</SUP> oils, it is by no means the whole story. The unique base oil cut used to refine the Penn-Grade 1<SUP>®</SUP> High Performance Oils maintain a tremendous affinity to metal surfaces. This naturally occurring &#8220;metal wetting&#8221; characteristic enables the oil to stay put on your highly stressed engines and makes the Penn-Grade 1<SUP>®</SUP> High Performance Oil resist slinging for an extended period of time. Also, rest assured in knowing that the Penn-Grade 1<SUP>®</SUP> High Performance Oils are 100% Made in the USA.

Just my $.02 on the subject.

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brad penn racing oil , got a break in formula and one for regular use

 

The sooner that folks start using BradPenn, the better off they'll be. It's the last oil left in the country still made from 100% PA-grade crude oil. It's the old Kendall refinery in Bradford PA, now owned by American Refining ... and still most of the same guys who made the Kendall. Kendall used to be great oil! If you do use BradPenn, make sure you get the PENNGRADE1 line, it's the racing oil. The regular BradPenn is made for the road with the new specs. www.BradPennRacing.com

There are also many ZDDP (zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate) additives on the market. One of particular note is Howards Cams' MAX ZPM, which has moly additives along with the ZDDP. It can be found at www.CompetitionProducts.com

All oils meant for road use have the lower Zinc levels, even the big diesel oils such as Rotella, Delo, Valvoline etc... another great EPA mandate. Supposedly to lower emissions, but I suspect done to get older vehicles off the road by wiping out the motors... like we weren't going to adjust.

 

The "reason" that zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP) is being removed from oils is that it poisons the catalytic converters on newer cars. That said ZDDP is available from numerous sources to added to your favorite flavor of oil. I used Castrol 20w-50. One source is one E-bay http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37.l1313&satitle=zddplus&category0=. Eastwood also carries it.

 

most of that was becuse they hadn't invented the pcv systems yet. the only thing good that ever came out of emissions stuff. the road draft tubes weren't very good. I think a lot of manufacturers are going to sel the oils under "race oil" not for street use. a way to get around the EPA regulations. I am going to order a few cases of Brad penn oil.

 

Mopars had a pcv. system in 1961.

 

There are also many ZDDP (zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate) additives on the market. One of particular note is Howards Cams' MAX ZPM, which has moly additives along with the ZDDP. It can be found at www.CompetitionProducts.com

Comp cams has a similar product. It's available through Summit (and probably Jegs). I use the Comp Cams additive with Castrol 20W-50 in my flathead and no problems.

 

(Bob, who is now retired, was one of GM's Top lubrication engineers)

Engine Oil Mythology
Bob Olree
GMPT – Fuels & Lubes

Myths are ill-founded beliefs held uncritically by interested groups. Over the years there has been an overabundance of engine oil myths. One was that the only good oils were oils made from “Pure Pennsylvania Crude Oil.” This one got started before the Second World War when engine oil was crude oil with very minimal refining, and crude oil from Pennsylvania made better engine oil than Texas or California crude. With modern refining, almost any crude can be made into good engine oil.

The next myth was that “modern” detergent engine oils were bad for older engines. This one got started after the Second World War, when the government no longer needed all the detergent oil for the war effort, and it hit the market as Heavy-Duty oil. These new detergent oils gave the pre-war cars, which had been driven way past their normal life and were full of sludge and deposits, a massive enema. In some cases bad things happened such as increased oil consumption – the piston rings were completely worn out and the massive piston deposits were the only thing standing between merely high and horrendous oil consumption. If detergent oils had been available to the public during the war, this myth never would have started.

Amazingly there are still a few people today, 60 years later, who believe that they need to use non-detergent oil in their older cars. Apparently it takes about 75 years for an oil myth to die.

Then there is the myth that new engines will not break-in on synthetic oils. Apparently there was an aircraft engine manufacturer who once put out a bulletin to this effect. Clearly the thousands and thousands of cars filled with Mobil 1 as factory-fill, which have broke-in quite well, should have put this one to rest. However this one is only 40 years old, so it has another 35 years to live.

All of these myths have a common theme; newer oils are bad. And this brings us to the latest myth – new “Starburst”/ API SM engine oils are bad for older cars because the amount of anti-wear additive in them has been reduced. This one has gotten big play in the antique and collector car press lately. The anti-wear additive being discussed is zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP).

Before debunking this myth we need to look at the history of ZDP usage in engine oil.

ZDP has been used for over 60 years as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability. Unfortunately, ZDP contains phosphorus, and phosphorus is a poison for automotive catalysts. For this reason ZDP levels have been reduced by about 35% over the last 10-15 years down to a maximum of 0.08% for “Starburst”/API SM oils.

Zinc dithiophosphate was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Starting in 1942, a Chevrolet Stovebolt engine with aftermarket copper/lead insert bearing connecting rods was the standard oil test . The insert bearings were weighed before and after test for weight loss due to corrosion. The phosphorus levels of oils that passed the test were in the 0.03% range.

In the mid 1950s Oldsmobile got in a horsepower war with its Rocket engine against the Chrysler Hemi. Both companies went to high-lift camshafts and both got into camshaft scuffing and wear problems very fast. There were three solutions. Better camshaft and lifter metallurgy, phosphating the camshaft, and increasing the phosphorus level from ZDP up to the 0.08% range. Another outcome was a battery of industry wide “Sequence” oil tests. Two of theses tests were valve-train scuffing/wear tests.

Knowing that this higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, some oil companies dumped even more in thinking that they were offering the customer even more protection. However it was soon learned that while going above something like 0.14% phosphorus might decrease break-in scuffing, it increased longer term wear. At about 0.20% phosphorus the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.

Later in the 1970s, the ZDP level was pushed up to the 0.10% phosphorus range as it was a cheap and effective antioxidant, and increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in Cadillacs pulling Airstream trailers from thickening to the point of not pumping. Recently, the need for this higher level of ZDP for protecting the oil from thickening has been greatly reduced with the introduction of more modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.

Enough history, now getting back to the myth that “Starburst/API SM oils are no good for older cars. The argument put forth by the myth believers is that while these oils work perfectly well in modern gasoline engines equipped with roller camshafts, they will cause catastrophic wear in older engines equipped with flat-tappet camshafts.


The “Starburst”/API SM oil standards were developed by a group of OEM, oil additive company, and oil company experts. When developing any new engine oil standard the issue of “backward compatibility” always comes up, and indeed the group of experts spent a lot of time researching this issue. Various oil and additive companies ran “no harm” tests on older cars with the new oils. No problems were uncovered.

The new specification contains two valve-train wear tests. One is the Sequence IVA Test which tests for camshaft scuffing and wear using a 2.4L Nissan single overhead camshaft engine with slider finger followers. The wear limits were tightened from the previous oil specification which contained a phosphorus limit of 0.10%. The second is the Sequence IIIG Test which evaluates cam and lifter wear. A current production GM Powertrain 3.8L engine with the valve train replaced with a flat tappet system similar to those used in the 1980s is used. The only reason that this test engine uses this older valve train design is to insure that older engines are protected. All “Starburst”/API SM oil formulations must pass these two tests.

In addition to the protection offered by these two valvetrain wear tests and the new testing which was conducted on the formulations containing lower levels of ZDP, a review of the knowledge gained over the years in developing previous categories also indicates that no problem should be expected. The new “Starburst”/API SM oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950s. They do contain less ZDP than the oils that solved the oil thickening issues in the 1960s, but that is because they now contain high levels of ashless antioxidants that were not commercially available in the 1960s.

The oil’s ZDP level is only one factor in determining the life of an older camshaft or a new aftermarket camshaft. Most of the anecdotal reports of camshaft failures attributed to the newer oils appear to be with aftermarket camshafts. Breaking in extremely aggressive aftermarket camshafts has always been problem. The legendary Smokey Yunick wrote that his solution to the problem was to buy multiple camshafts and simply try breaking them in until he found one that survived break-in without scuffing.


Despite the pains taken in developing special flat tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that “new oils will wear out older engines.” Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will take about 75 years for this one to die also.


February 13, 2007





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Please also see this link it has another artical in the last half of the first post,,,

The following is from a presentation Bob gave to a classic car club.

Are Newer Engine Oils Really Bad for Older Cars?

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/engine-drivetrain/16019-engine-oil-mythology-debunked-zdp-content.html

 

Too much ZDP is not good.

Yes, use a good break in oil additive when the cam is new (Like the OLD GM EOS) but Once the cam is broke in do you really need all that ZDP?

"Knowing that this higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, some oil companies dumped even more in thinking that they were offering the customer even more protection. However it was soon learned that while going above something like 0.14% phosphorus might decrease break-in scuffing, it increased longer term wear. At about 0.20% phosphorus the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling."


and also roller lifter cams do not require a lot of ZDP.

 

When all this came up a couple of years ago, I switched to Royal Purple. No complaints.

 

TRICKNOLOGY - Finally a concise and well written explanation that actually seems to be based in fact instead of the usual rhetoric that gets thrown around. Thanks for the BEST posting on this subject to date!
This should probably become a TECH sticky so we can put this subject to bed !

 

that is because of the zink content in rotella diesel 15w40. I used it for the break-in on my pontiac motor. I heard talk from sales rep they are under pressure to take the zink out of diesel oils in the future.....sucks

 

Well, I'll you what. Mr Engineer can spout all he wants to about how things appear in his lab. He is indeed correct about the detergent issue, tho.

Shy of switching to a synthetic or synthetic-blend, there are HUGE differences in motor oils made from a paraffin base (PA crude) vs. an asphalt base (everywhere BUT PA)... which would you rather have in your engine, asphalt or wax?

The differences can be measured in engine wear... we used to get Kendall (after the move to TX) and Pennzoil for free, and we'd trade it 2 cases to 1 for good oil!

 

Couple of links that may be helpful....

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195620

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243928

These guys put a lot of $$$ into their big inch, high lift, solid lifter motors. They definately want them to last longer than a few years.

 

valvaline racing oil still is an option, still has the required zinc in it.

 

delo already has. not sure about rotella

 

Carquests store brand is Valvoline actually and alot of the dirt track racers here run it. Its all we run in the motors, changed every 3-5 races and comes out pretty clean and the viscosity is about the same as it went in. Only real wear I generally see is when the motors are torn apart after a season 15-22 races or so is rod parts or pistons which are replaced as needed, or they make holes in the block with failures generally produced from rods/rod bolts getting weak and letting go. Break-in yes more zinc is good use a quality oil. I would say spend more money on good oil filters (Wix) over the course of the engines life then worrying about zinc content. Just say no to FRAM.-Weeks

 

I could say some thing rude and unhelpful like" wear your collar a little higher so you don't get your neck so sunburnt" but instead I'll Suggest you read it and digest a little of what was written there. it's not overly technical in content.

Finally.

 

OK, my experience. The CJ-4 Rotella Triple-Protection has the same level of zinc and phosphorus as pre-1998 car oil did. If you weren't killing cams then you won't be now. They also added 35 ppm of Boron which is what they use in Harley oil and reduced the detergent level to a point that it keeps things clean but is not sticky.

What killed cams was shitty off shore lifters when the OEMs went to rollers and the in country manufacturers quit making them. Johnson as far as I know is the only compnay making good lifters now. You can't even get those great Delphi two piece lifters anymore. The oil issue was just a shuck and jive by the cam companies selling inferior lifters. End of story.

I have CJ-4 Rotella in both of my flat tappet cars and there has been no asteroid hit the earth. VOA/UOA shows no metal being taken off, 1400-1300 ppm of zinc and 1100-1000 ppm phosphorus virgin to after use so that tells me its good enough being deposited properly.

Buy good lifters and make sure they spin when you break in the engine. If they don't you will have a flat cam. Prep the lifter bores so they do spin with your fingers on assembly, put the sticky paste on the bottom of the lifter only, and anal sex lube on the body of the lifter. You will have no trouble.

Here's a VOA of 15w40 Rotella CJ-4, SM. So the sky is not falling. This was Dec 6, 2007 BTW

Here it is, Shell Rotella 15w40 (not Rimula) CJ4, SM rated engine oil

Iron 2
Chromium <1
Nickel <1
Aluminum 1
Lead <1
Copper <1
Tin <1
Silver <.1
Titanium <1
Silicon 8
Boron 35
Sodium 2
Potassium <10
Moly <5
Phosphorous 1137
ZINC 1349
Calcium 2230
Barium <10
Magnesium 11
Antimony <30
Vanadium <1

VIS @ 40 113.6
Vis @ 100 15.6
TBN 10.01

I e-mailed Shell and asked them what the Zinc and Phosphorus levels were of the CJ-4/SM Triple Protection Rotella T. They said, and this was in mid-2007:

"Shell Rotella T Multigrade Oil SAE 15W-40 with Triple Protection
Technology, our API CJ-4/SM specification product, typically contains about 1200 ppm zinc and 1100 ppm phosphorous as manufactured."

From the horse's mouth.

I recognize one may choose to believe that or not. I'm less inclined to believe they'd lie about something like that.

Another analysis, this on 1/3/2008

Analysis by ANA Labs


Fe 2

AL 2

B 33

Na 5

MG 10

Ca 1965

P 1355

Zn 1504

All other elements 0

Visc. at 100c= 15.7

TBN= 9.6

The extra good stuff they seem to be increasing is mitigated by lower sulphur in the fuel, my buddies are seeing a alot of ZN levels of 1500 virgin, and close to 1400 phosphorus. It isn't hurting particulate filters at all because of the low sulphur. If a gas burner can't live on that then...

 

Bttt

 

I understand your point, but do you believe everything you read on the net? To me, that article carries no more credibility than the guy in the T-bucket thread who says his T will run 6's and gets a 'little squirrelly at 180'... I'm going on measurable results from 15 years of working on race engines.