<HR style="COLOR: #e5e5e5; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #e5e5e5" SIZE=1> <!-- / icon and title --><!-- message --> The "CRANK" travels 120 degrees then a plug fires on an inline 6. A V8 fires every 90 degrees. So what?! it has to do with overlap of power pulses. A 4 cylinder has none so it always has a little shake to it. A six has some and an 8 more and my v 10 even more but it is more or less irrelvant powerwise. I would run a 300 ford six against a 302 Ford V8 anyday of the week $ for $ and I would win too. A jag six was 250 Hp from 230 cubes in the sixties and ran like your grannys flathead six for smoothness. BMW was big on sixes and gave no one ground. Austin Healy was a big powerful six. Dodge cummins is a big six and i saw one run 10s in a 4wd on Pinks all out. Most tractors are sixes. Many Cat diesels are sixes. Mercrdes built many sports cars that were sisxes. I have worked on quite a few of them. Jim Nelson had a slant six dragster back in the day that held the C/ dragster record in a class filled with SB Chevies. Even the "senior dragster" is a six. Nothing wrong with V8s but 6s are fine too and a whole lot more fun especialy when they trailer a V8. My friend Bob Gauleys 300 Ford 6 ran mid tens in his T bucket. I did the motor in 93 and he raced it right up to Nov when he sold it. Flat top pistons , ported head Ultradyne solid cam, 800 Holley, Clifford manifold, homebrew headers. 4America vintage stock car (35 chev ) has a motor i did design and machine work on. Been running since 2000 very successfully with several different owners. Currently on the Florida vintage circuit. If I told you how little it cost us to build that motor you would not believe me so i wont and yet it can run with them all and give them a sound spanking now and then. My senior Dragster is a pure fun automobile . Cost with a six is very low and fun is very high. Did a 250 for Len Colllins 39 Chev coupe. He repalced a SBchev V8 with it. Len said it is much faster (Rubber in all three gears) better on fuel and a whole lot more fun. He takes it to Florida every winter so some have probably seen the green 39 Chev coupe around Orlando Ocala area. What more can i say except to encourage all who would do a six. Have a V8 for lunch. Its fun! Don
the 120 deg firing makes it a more balance engine, not more torque. the heavy crank and spinning mass prob healps out on the torque. they are torque monsters, the larger ci ones. if you want power get a v8, i disagree with. at least power per cubic inch. Is this a "how many mistakes can I make in a single statement" contest? The Internet: where everyone is an expert, and all opinions are equal.
explain to me how many mistakes are there, please. the inline six is a more balanced engine because the same degrees are between firings 120 deg 1&6, 2&4, 3&4. this cannot be acomplished in a v8. do you disagree the much heavier crank and spinning assembly add to the low end torque??? the heavy mass will not bog down when load is applied. the chevy 292 has more low end torque the chevy v8s of the same cubic inches. in v8's vs inlines are we talking torque, power, rpms, horsepower?? the inlines have some advantages and some disadvantages. tell me how i won a stupid mistake contest??? please educate me.
You're making statements that have no basis in fact. 1. the inline six is a more balanced engine I can't disagree with this, because I have no idea what it means 2. because the same degrees are between firings 120 deg 1&6, 2&4, 3&4. this cannot be acomplished in a v8 No, all V8 engines have exactly the same number of degrees between firings. It's just not the same number of degrees as in engines with (guess?) different numbers of cylinders. The only common engines that do not have a regular firing order is some V6s. In everything else, 720° ÷ the number of cylinders is the separation of crank position between power strokes. In some cases (most in-lines), this interval is determined entirely by crank-pin position (clocking around the main journals), in others (most V8) it's determined by the bank angle and the pin position; in yet others (such as the 3MZ Toyota V6) it's determined by the bank angle, the pin position, and the offset between adjacent pairs of pins. 3. do you disagree the much heavier crank and spinning assembly add to the low end torque??? the heavy mass will not bog down when load is applied Yes, I definitely disagree, and so does Isaac Newton. Given: 2 identical cars with identical engines, except #1 has a 1,000 lb. crankshaft and #2 has a 10 lb. crankshaft. Both are rolling at 1 mph, and accelerate at full throttle from 100 RPM. Which one do you think is faster? 4. the chevy 292 has more low end torque the chevy v8s of the same cubic inches Sometimes true (and sometimes not), but it has nothing to do with how many cylinders, or the weight of the crank. 5. inlines have some advantages and some disadvantages As far as producing power? Not really. The characteristics that produce low-speed torque can be obtained from any engine at all, regardless of the configuration, number of cylinders, etc. If you really wanted to spend the money, a Ferrari V12 could be made to pull stumps out of your yard. Torque is produced as follows: the size of the cylinder(s), efficiency, and compression ratio. Cylinder closer to being completely full (VE = 100)? More torque. Bigger cylinders? More torque. More compression? More torque. That pretty much ends the list (for anything except resonant tuning).
A big inline 6 like a 292 Chevy or 300 Ford can make about 250 HP for street use.This is an engine built on a sane budget with a stock head that idles with reasonable lope and still has good lower speed power.A 302 GMC fits into this desription also maybe a little less power. Guys talk about OHV inlines making 400 plus HP without a blower,they idle like shit and are very lumpy at lower speeds and expensive to build. Like Panic says,you can tune any engine any way you want given enough money. And as always,the boring SBC V-8 makes more power for less bucks than any engine.
panic, let me say i wasn't trying to argue with you. i may have not phrased it well, my lack of typing skill are evident. #1 & #2 are really part of the same i wasn't saying that v8 firing was spaced unevenly, just the inline six is in a single plane and balance by other opposing cyl from front to back, balanced over lap between pistons making a more balance engine. that's why they have a lower rpm idle- at the risk of winning another stupid statement contest. the v8 is it 2 planes and as forces acting on it that are not truly as balanced. again sorry for my lack of communication skills, but i thought this was a pretty documented fact. i certainly didn't come up with it. #3- maybe newton would disagree maybe not. i was not talking about acceleration. like i said the 1000lb crank would not bog down when load would be applied to it the way the 10lb crank would. not saying crank weight or design balance is the only factors in torque output. i'm not saying i know more about engine design than you or anything like that. it's ny understanding that the nature of any engine can be changed thru modification but same caricteristics are inherent to design. not trying to argue, i guess i just thought why the jab about winning a stupid contest. hey, i'm here to learn not to teach. if you are here to teach that's great, i hope it's right.
Well H3O.... had enough yet? lol... I see it's been a few months since this thread was posted... if you read this, have you decided on any mods for your 223?
Sorry, you win. You have a huge advantage - you can make things up as you go along, but I'm limited by the laws of physics and how an engine actually functions. You can write complete nonsense far more quickly than I can correct it. So... I won't.
Anyone who has ever tried to keep the flywheel tight on a race GMC will question the "Smooth" inline six deal. But the "Cool" is something else.
That's an interesting point. The long dwell between power strokes stresses the damper, cam drive, flex plate, flywheel, torque converter etc. through their drives or fasteners worse than a V8 at the same power level, because the individual pulses (e.g., 400 hp for each) are 33% stronger and 33% farther apart. Load-release-load is bad under any conditions - big 4 cylinders are worse, V12 has almost none.
Santucci was pretty specific that a 292 could be made to produce equal or greater power - but it looked like the development curve was almost vertical. IMHO the 300 is a safer choice for someone who doesn't have a flow bench or a dyno, and wants predictable results without drama. In terms of development, I think of it as a giant slant 6 - much bigger and stronger, but responsive to mods developed for other engines (note the many comparisons in the Chrysler factory race lit for B engine concepts passed over to slant). 12 port wedge chamber motors are all sisters, and stuff like the 235, 223, 230, 270 etc. are slightly weird cousins. Remember that a 300 is already what very $$$ speed equipment is required to do on a Ford 200/250 or Chevy 250/292 - individual ports. If you really enjoy fighting with 1 hand behind your back, use the 223.
i was not trying to make stuff up as i go along. one thing i know you are wrong about is me typing it quicker than you could correct it. it takes me a long time to make this stuff up. again sorry to annoy.
they have a longer stroke you can measure it by sticking a rod in the cylinder. Also they have remote fans The water pump has no provision for a fan. the fan bolts to some bosses on the thermostat housing. OldWolf
OOOOH Yea..... the sky's the limit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Back in the late 70's.....there was this guy that got the 292, got a bunch of heads, cut all the #1 cylinders off, brazed this stuff together, had a custom made cam made for this beast........I built the intake.....3 side draft webers.....with headers, balanced crank, yada, yada, yada...............................545 Horses.................@ 6800 RPM......
You can get headers for these things all day long..... also, you can get just about any carb setup you want..................
I was leafing through some old magazines a while back and came across an old issue of Popular Hot Rodding from (I think) the late '70's. There was a guy racing a Pinto with a big Ford 6 in it, and he had done the same thing, except he cut 351C heads up to make a killer head for his 6. Must've worked, the thing ran in the 9's. If any of you hard-core Ford 6 guys are interested, I can scan the article for you, just PM me.
You are correct sir! I had considered this build for my 300 but wasn't smart enough to do the engineering on it. I didn't want to shell out the big bucks for it either. Too bad the demand for racing inline sixes died such a long time ago... it seems as if someone could make quite a bit of money making race heads out of 351C heads. For that matter... aren't there some 4V version of the 351M and 400M heads that are basically C heads? I know the Cleveland motors and Modifieds shared some stuff, but am not 100% certain. Maybe one of the pros knows the head differences. I know the 2v Modified heads aren't worth a crap... maybe i'm remembering wrong and there wasn't a 4V M head... time to research...
That's the man. That article really showed his engineering ability and tenacity. I'm not much of a six fan, but that is true hot-rodding! I mean, look at all the people claiming how much of their car they built. Who do you know that actually built their own cylinder heads? Wonder what ever happend to that car, or Mr Sizemore for that matter?
Anderson makes a billet head for the 300 six. I cant believe some of the stuff i read here. All the guy wanted to do was built a hot 223. Then we come up with some cocomani idea that an inline has some special characterstic that gives it extra torque . A motor is a collection of single cylinders who dont know or care what the one next door is doing. The record for HP per cubic inch normally aspirated was set in the 1930s and has never been beat. It wasnt made with a small block Chevy, I am sorry to say it wasnt even a Chrylser hemi. The argument went to the black art of torque but not HP. Then in come the French (chevrolet ) guys with their little russian engine(Duntov), mouths wide open with that song we have all heard too long "The Small Block Chev is the cheapest bla bla" Excuse me a minute. I gotta puke. Obviously the V8 guys have never built a 6 or they wouldn,t talk so foolish. Sixes are fun. They work far better than one would think. They require thought and carefiul tuning. Sometimes you even get to make stuff with your hands. That is what hotrodding used to be about. And then we get into the brand argument. Here is a news flash. Mopar guys do Mopar sixes. Ford guys do Ford sixes. Chevy guys do Chevy sixes. That shouldnt surprise anyone. Why cant help on his choosen build be offered instead a fight breaking out???????????
Yup, the HAMB guys have a unique attitude, which is always entertaining, but rarely of any technical merit. I am told next years Formula One cars will be using beam front axle, side valve engine, drum brakes and a six volt electrical system and skinny cross ply white wall tires. Nobody cares how fast the cars go, but it will at least be a traditional race. . After the race, all the Formula One drivers will drool and have orgasms over car 84 (that crashed in the third lap), because it was painted green, and had a fully restored authentic wooden rear view mirror salvaged from a Assyrian war chariot, dated from 130 BC.
well i was not trying to fight with anyone. sorry if it seemed that way. i was just offering maybe a clarificalion to a previous commentby someone else several were questioning then i won a idiot award. i am totally a inline six guy but hey if guys want to build v8's that's cool with me. i still don't get what was so bad about what i said, hell maybe it's all BS. if so that's fine. i still think at idle a 292 will produce more torque than a 305 because of the heavier crank- ie low end torque. if you increase the rpms the lighter crank has a advantage for torque output, if this makes me a idiot, so be it- i'm a idiot. i wish the guy all the luck in his ford inline build and was trying to encourage it.
There are some great inline six cylinder engines produced by BMW, Nissan, and Toyota, but I have yet to see anything decent come out of America. The reason being that in the US, six cylinder engines were basically designed for economy vehicles, trucks, or tractors. <bk/> Anything in America requiring performance traditionally uses a V8.,<bk/> In Europe or Japan, on the other hand, high revving, high performance six cylinder engines with four valves per cylinder and double overhead cams, EFI, {and turbochargers} make very sweet packages.
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