Flathead V8 timing gears

I have a ford flathead 59a that I may have installed 8ba timing gears. I am running a 59a cam,distributer and front cover. I know the thrust direction is different. I have never fired engine do I need to tear the engine down?

Bill

 

not sure, i would like to know the answer to this too. its certainly not hard to change it again if needed, front cover off,drop pan, line up gears, slide off and replace.

 

for what it's worth, i wouldn't run them. it will slam the cam the wrong way and beat the hell out of it.

 

I could not find the engine pics. It is it may have the correct gear in engine. I thought I had one of each gears and the one not in my engine is a 59a gear. I hate to screw up the paint to check.

 

That crank gear does not just slide off. Need a pretty good puller to get it off. You do want the thrust against the block on the 59AB.

 

well the one i last pulled off must have been worn. it slid off. was a '39 99A ex military engine, very low miles...you sure?

 

Yes - they're usually pressed on pretty well.

I think I've got an 8BA and 59A gear - will a pic help?

 

I am running just the opposite, an 8ba with early gears, In my feable mind I didn't like how the thrust of the cam was going forward pushing on the timing cover, I would change them if I was you

 

I may be missing something myself, but dont both engines turn in the same direction? Why would it matter if the endplay stays the same, and the engine turns the same way. the lifters go up and down the shafts go round and round. I would think that the auxillaries like a distributor might come into play....or maybe the endplay isnt the same? What about it Ernie, I trust your opinion...you got the gears and the pics, how about alittle theoretical light?

 

i would want the correect gears. having the thrust against the timing cover might adversly affect the distributor end play, ign and cam timing.

 

I always accepted it as gospel that pre-49 needed rear thrust and post to the front, and I long ago had a distributor failure that I blamed on 8BA gears...though I had no idea how to analyze that back then.
Since then, Ron on the barn pointed out that normally the movement available in there is minimal and so it likely does not matter.
Stuff: First, measure actual fore and aft play...just pop off the crab and indicate or use feeler gauge.
Second...I recently noticed that '49 Mercs (and so probably Fords and trucks, have not looked) were made with early gears...changed midyear, book indicates late preferred, no reasons given.
third...helical gears means forward/aft movement changes timing. Would be easy to measure on a crab, probably slight, but with initial timing set off motor you are assuming proper gears.
I think both setups have surfaces capable of surviving thrust either way. I would use correct gears if building anew. If I had an engine together, I would measure total movement and also be 100% sure said movement did not bottom against distributor...the thrust capacity of the distributor would fail very quickly against this.
My failure invoved a distributor that suddenly developed a LOT of endplay. I suspected cam thrust, but was too young and dumb and poorly equipped to find out if I was right.

 

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From what I understand, Ford designed the oil pump drive and the cam and distrib drive gear
on 8BA engines to apply 'canceling' end play in such a way as to help keep the cam from
exerting excessive thrust in one direction or another.

A local here just finished building a Blown 59A and updated to the upright distributer/gears.
The end result was a few destroyed adjustable lifters as the cam walked far enough to
cause problems with the lifter to cam lobe. The original machinist blamed the failure on the
adjustable lifters and installed another set and sent him on his way only to have the new
lifters fail in the same way.

It should also be noted that they installed a high volume oil pump which takes more umphh to turn.
The additional power needed to turn the oil pump may have also contributed to
upsetting the balance that the 59's stock pump and direct front (drive) mount factory
correct dist/timing gears would normally apply.

Our local machinist recommends checking end play on all Flatheads (59 with 8BA gears as
well as regular 8BA builds). He prefers to use the 8BA front cover that has the 'cupped' boss
cast into it that accepts the upright distrib cams 'extended' snout.

(8BA 'cupped' cover on right, left is a 59A cover)


This allows him to add a brass shim inside the cupped boss to take up excessive end play
and to keep excess forward thrust in check.

There was a front cover built for 8BA powered military engines that had an adjuster bolt
designed into the front cover. The adjuster (and shim) allowed for externally controlling the
cams forward thrust. 'Bert' has converted both cast steel and aluminum timing covers by
drilling a hole in alignment with the camshafts centerline and welding a nut to the outer
cover thus allowing for the addition of an adjuster bolt similiar to the rare military 8BA front
cover. This is also the fix that Bert performed in the case of the above mentioned blown
engine which was brought to him after it destroyed multiple adjustable lifters.

Since Late Flathead powered Military vehicles are extremely rare up here, Bert has
mentioned only seeing the factory 'adjustable' front cover on a few (rare) Flathead powered tank engines.


hope this is of some use



.

 

Thanks for the positive responses. I was sick when I realized what I may have done. I know the difference in the gears. I just mixed up my parts on assembly. I will check the end play of the cam. If it dose not put pressure on the distributer I am running it.

Bill

 

Red's in the Engine Talk section said that at one time fairly recently there seemed to be 7 different adjustable lifters drifting around the market...I think most were without any real info as to origin. Many were too soft, and he suggested a simple test. There is definitely really bad stuff around the cheapest supplier end of things. Treasure your Johnsons if you can find any!
I think Isky and NAPA supply the ugly lump solid one...they seem to be generally accepted as safe. The weight is highly unappealing, but not a real world problem.
I would assume whatever Red's sells is good, assuming the new owner is maintaining standards. Doesn't Flatattack sell one?

 

I've got some lifters and now don't remember where I got them, so I'm treating them as suspect (they are in generic packaging) - I may just drop them off at a machine shop and have the hardness tested and re-hardened as appropriate. Anyone have a ballpark rockwell # to harden them to?

 

I bought some Johnson lifters or at least paid a Johnson price for some that are very heavy. They have slots ball milled, maybe 3/32 deep, into them instead of windows. Did Johnson make several types?

 

There is a thread on the "Ford barn" about this. It seems that original Johnson's are still available. One of the guys there followed up on them and found a place that was supposed to have them. When he called, the person he spoke to said they didn't have them. When asked to double check, they found they still stocked them. Post #63 on this thread :http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3590&highlight=johnson+lifters&page=4

 

Paint is easier to replace than metal....